Organizations

12/26/23

Program
Century of Lies
Date
Guest
Raphael Nägeli
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

In 2019, the UN’s Commission on Narcotic Drugs issued a Ministerial Declaration on drugs, which laid down the main objectives of the international community in addressing the world drug situation for a 10-year period The CND plans a mid-term review of that Declaration in 2024, and a new report by the International Drug Policy Consortium shows there has been little, incomplete, or no progress in achieving the goals set out in that Declaration. The IDPC’s new report is entitled “Off Track: Shadow Report for the Mid-Term Review of the 2019 Ministerial Declaration on Drugs.” There was a launch event on December Fifth. On this edition of Century of Lies we’re going to hear from some of the speakers, including: His Excellency Ambassador Raphael Nägeli, Permanent Representative of Switzerland to the UN in Vienna; Marie Nougier with the International Drug Policy Consortium, lead author of the report; Zaved Mahmood, Human Rights and Drug Policy Advisor at the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights; Paula Aguirre, Director of Elementa Human Rights in Colombia.

Audio file

12/26/23 President Ruth Dreifuss

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
President Ruth Dreifuss
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

President Ruth Dreifuss , first woman to hold the Swiss presidency, is the founder and president of the Global Commission on Drug Policy. The commission wants “responsible state control, from production to consumption of drugs” but that the opposite is now the case. “It’s an unregulated market in the hands of criminal groups.”

Audio file

Transcript:

I, I feel it's quite a privilege and honor, truthfully today. We're going to be speaking with the former president of Switzerland, um, Ruth Dreifuss, and she's with us now. Hello, president, uh, Dreyfus. How are you?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Fine. Fine. Happy to be with you. Thank you for the invitation.

DEAN BECKER
Well, and, and thank you. And, um, you know, but besides having been a past president of Switzerland, you are also a, a pioneer, if you will. Uh, one of the founders, one of those who, uh, helped to form the global commission on drugs. Uh, am I correct? Ma'am yes. Yes ma'am. And, and tell us a little bit about the history of that, how it came to be and why it came to be, I guess,

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, the, the beginning of the whole, uh, trip, if I can say, so was in Latin America, there was a commission on a track and democracy, uh, lead, lead it by, uh, three from a president president, uh, uh, [inaudible] president [inaudible] from Columbia and president the deal from, uh, Mexico, but also many cultural leaders and economic leaders, uh, who, uh, were just, uh, amazed about the link between drug policy, uh, the presence of dragons society and the threat for democracy, uh, institution were corrupted by the drug trafficking organization. Um, money-laundering, uh, was, uh, on the, also on, on one of the big problem, but the biggest problem was the violence, the violence that was between, uh, different gangs, but also between the state and the gangs between different, uh, so-called, uh, law enforcement organizations, some of them on the side of the gangs and the others fighting against them.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Um, and this was a real war and a war that was a demented, but what we call the war on drugs, which is the militarization of the system, the harsh repression, uh, without having any positive aspect, uh, on the whole issue. So this, uh, commission and it's a report, uh, 2009, where really, uh, an effort to break the taboo to show the consequences of failed policies. And this was I think, a very important step in the awareness about what drug policy and drugs can do to a society. But in the meantime, our Latin American fellows had a look to you hub. And so that in your hope also, uh, the discussion was the debate was open and, uh, some solution in the field of public health, where, uh, in experiments that were very important in, in many, many countries in Porto gal, uh, for the decriminalization in, uh, Switzerland, Germany and others country for a public health approach, bringing new kinds of treatments, new, new kind of harm reduction measures, inventing really new approaches.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So in, uh, 2011, these two groups met to create the global commission on drug policy. And since then we expanded to other continents to Africa, to Asia, to Oceania. And, uh, I think we can say more or less that we are really a global movement, a global movement of, uh, citizen world citizen who think that, uh, it is their commitment to, uh, promote reforms in drug policy. We have now, uh, 26, I think, members, uh, of which a blush, but a group is, uh, constituted by former head of States, uh, from a head of governments. Hi, uh, uh, how civil servant of the multilateral system.

DEAN BECKER
And, um, first off, I just have to commend you and praise you. I, uh, I've been at this for more than 20 years. I've, uh, beat my head against the wall, so to speak. Uh, so often here in the United States, there are so few people and especially the higher you reach in authority. Um, there are few people willing to even begin to discuss this subject. I have broached that subject. I have made great progress in my city with the district attorney that the sheriff, the police chief, I think they understand it. They grasp the concept that the drug war is a miserable failure, and yet at the higher echelon. And I have great hopes that the Biden administration will take some steps along this path, but at the higher echelon, it's just been non-existent and you have had, I would hope the opportunity to speak to some us officials about this situation. Why is there such a roadblock here? Is it that we run the drug war in essence, around the world? We have demanded through the United nations that it exists. Can we just not back down now, get your thoughts there, uh, president please.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, I think, uh, the difficulty to, to make the paths of reforms is linked with a hundred year fight against substances that are the CLA declared illegal. And, uh, it began with opium and it was at the beginning really also a colonial, uh, feature, uh, and the fight between us, you know, the British and the China war on opium and so on. But, uh, the, the difficulty were cemented, I would say by the international convention and the UN flag, uh, that begins in 61 convention, 71 for a second one and, uh, 18, uh, 1988 for the third one. And then from one to the other, I would say the repressive system, the prohibition got stronger and stronger. Now these three convention are among the international multi-lateral convention that have Mo most, uh, received ratification. And, uh, there is really a difficulty to break this false consensus, uh, around the convention.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Why do I say it's a false consensus because the need for the different countries are, uh, very different. I mean, also, and, uh, the, there is a pressure to keep this, uh, international controlled regime also under the pressure from some, uh, very important countries, the important countries being, for instance, the United States of America, with the possibility of a torsion, if countries are not doing what they, uh, uh, comply to do with the ratification of the convention, because, uh, the other element is that all this history of, uh, generalizing yeah, making it an evil, uh, by the, from the drugs have also created a perception among the public opinion about what the drugs are, even if they are not what they seem to understand. So, uh, there is a whole history of, uh, false, uh, perception of discrimination of the people who use draw of stigmatization of the drug, uh, drug users.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
And it is important to say that a scientific basis to, uh, make this difference between legal and illegal and to make the difference between the substances that are more severely controlled, that owners lack the scientific basis. I mean, they are the reflection of, uh, which kind of products are socially accepted and economically, perhaps also very, uh, uh, they effective in the, in the legal market like tobacco or alcohol and the others that are, uh, prohibited. And in this sense also left in criminal hands. So it's a, a long history, and this is probably the reason why it is difficult to change the mindset, uh, of the people. So the fight against stigmatization, the fight against, uh, stigmatization, which is totally linked with the fight for the DEC criminalization of the consumption of drugs is, uh, uh, in my view, one of the biggest, uh, priority and past to, to go further.

DEAN BECKER
Yes. Thank you. That and the folks, um, to remind you, we are speaking with Ruth Dreifuss, she's a former president of Switzerland, one of the pioneers of the global commission on drugs policy, um, president Dreyfus. I want to back up a little bit, you were talking about the violence, uh, in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, these, it hasn't gotten better during this COVID. I was just reading some stories that, uh, uh, halfway through last year, they had, um, uh, 17,000 deaths in Mexico alone. Uh, from this cartel violence, there were 446 policemen killed during, uh, last year as well. Uh, from this cartel violence, I often wonder what will it take?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So, I mean, development is, is really key. We have to change the approach to this population now, uh, marginalized and entering into the criminal, uh, uh, the illicit activity. Now, what we say also as commissioned in one of our reports is how important it is to make a difference between the people who are really at the bottom of the pyramid, who are, uh, just entering into these activities for a necessity and the real log that needs that organizer of the criminal organization. They lead the buses and criminalizing.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
The people at the bottom is just entering into a vicious circle without having any efficacy safety on the reality of the existing of, uh, of criminal organization and well, a concentration on the top is a concentration of, uh, the money. There is a concentration of co fighting. The corruption is an international effort to fight against money laundering is an effort in the country to fight against the entering the money of the drug in the legal sector. Let's say for instance, uh, the, the building, the housing, uh, the housing system and so on. So, I mean, it's, it's really difficult. I feel very humble when I speak about Latin America or Africa or Asia, because, uh, well, I was the president and I was in charge for public health and for the implementation of the narcotic law in Switzerland, but it was easy. It was not, it was not understood immediately, but, uh, it is now well, uh, well, hooted in the public opinion. And it was so easy that, that I have some difficulties to give advice to people who are responsible to, uh, who are in such a more difficult situation because also Switzerland had the means. We had the scientific, uh, team, we had the money, we had, uh, people at the forefront working in the streets. We had all we needed, I would say, too, we had all the possibilities, uh, to act. I wouldn't say that this is always the case everywhere right

DEAN BECKER
Now, speaking of which, uh, your time, uh, as president was back in around the year 1999, that was when Switzerland was beginning to adopt the, uh, the heroin injection program. If I am correct. Uh, I, a couple of years back, I was invited to speak to the European monitoring center on drugs and drug abuse. And then I went on to burn and I, there, I met Dr. Kristoff Burkey, who was one of the pioneers in, in setting up this, this program. And as I understand it, you guys are now over 20 million injections in these facilities with zero overdose deaths, which compares so well. So favorably and the United States last year, it was 83,335 overdose deaths. Let's talk about that comparison, please.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Yes, with pleasure. I mean, uh, the first, uh, the first experiment with, uh, safe consumption consumption rooms was made very early in 86 in a vain, quiet city, quite conservative city, the city, the capital of Switzerland Burnham. And this was really the beginning and it expanded, uh, to, through the whole, uh, country during the last 30 years or 40 years now. So we have a huge experience with, uh, with this service. And, uh, it is clear that, uh, it saved life. It helped to, to strengthen, uh, to build, uh, con uh, confidence relationship between the people who were there, uh, medical, social professionals. And so, so that, uh, if somebody is ready for instance, to a change in his life, uh, okay. I mean, he will find, or she will find exactly the person that can help. And we accept absolutely also that, uh, drug consumption is not always problematic, that people can live very well, even with an addiction and that if they cannot, uh, are not ready or not willing to abandon this consumption, uh, in my view, they have a right really to make it in a safe, uh, in a safe way.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
I mean, the people who were directly, uh, the, the, the main actor in this, their families, uh, and the public, uh, some association and the public, uh, the public opinion. So we, this, this is in, I would say is no longer considered as something, uh, [inaudible] very innovative. It is, it is accepted. It is also accepted by the neighborhoods because they saw, uh, also that, uh, it was, uh, for them better to have such a place than to have people lying around shooting themselves and, uh, and, uh, underground, uh, in playgrounds. And so on. Uh, for instance, one of the services, the users of the, of the safe consumption home are doing is to be sure that there are no needles around in the, in the neighborhood. And the contact with the neighborhood is also very, very important. But as I say, we have the largest experience in the world of this kind of, uh, of institution. And, uh, uh, we can only say it is positive for everybody. It is positive for the people who use drugs. It reduces the risk of transmission of, uh, blood drain, uh, illnesses. And it saves people from overdoses.

DEAN BECKER
I'm not sure how that's progressing, but the fact that they're attempting, it says a heck of a lot. If you ask me, and in, in, uh, uh, Canada, the police chiefs are now behind the safe injection facilities. They actually want them in their neighborhoods. And yet here in the United States with state and local authorities and judges and preachers, all trying to block this idea to prevent this from happening in America, it's a good idea. Is it not president Dreyfus?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, you know, uh, during the whole period, I was in charge in, in Switzerland, and I could progressively gain the support also of the voters of the citizen, of the population. I still had to go every year to Vietnam, to the commission on narcotics to explain what we were doing. And, uh, we were not, I mean, some countries, uh, were not, uh, convinced that we were still, uh, compliant, complying with the conventions now, uh, it is true that, uh, consumption rooms were long considered as not being in line with the convention, but this has changed. It is now recognized that it is a measure that can save life and that it is to be considered as a, what we call a harm reduction measure. Uh, but it was a long fight. I had to discuss several times also with that. I MCB the control board and not, uh, before the members of the CMD to explain that.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
It was no longer being asked by the police. It was really the possibility to take a heroin, like a diabetic person can take, uh, insulin and has to take insulin. So this, uh, at the beginning was also considered as something quite, uh, uh, well, a big step, but it was also accepted by the NCB, by the CND, by the who, uh, as a measure that is not different than other substitution therapies like metagon. And so that it can be, uh, why not a lifelong, uh, treatment, uh, in a atmosphere where this is recognized as a necessity and the people, uh, receive also the, I would say the social support, they probably need at the beginning of this, uh, of this, uh, way. And, uh, this was also monitored. We published all the results. We made a great debate. We had to vote on it to put it in the law.

DEAN BECKER
Earlier this week, the district attorney Kim all came out with another half dozen indictments of drug cops who killed a couple wounded, each other shooting through the walls. It's taken two years, there's still no ballistic evidence or whatever, but this follows on the heels of a crime lab that was scandalous. That was convicting people without even analyzing the, uh, uh, the drugs. Um, the, the, this is just not new or unique corruption and the money laundering, the, the, the, the, the deaths in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, all of this happenstance that doesn't need to happen anymore. And, and I guess from my perspective, it seems like a us politician could get elected by saying, I want to stop funding the cartels. I want to basically eliminate overdose deaths. And yet nobody steps forward your, your thought, how do we massage or maneuver these us politicians to embrace this possibility?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Yes, let me first perhaps speak about another commission. I was sister, if I can say so, which is the West African commission on drugs, they made an excellent report. They drafted also a model law for the whole region changing, uh, decriminalizing the consumption on the, on the, on drugs. But what I want to, to say to, to, to stay with your question is that, uh, in the first report, they said, there is no electoral campaign on all sides without the money of, of, of drug count. And there is no new buildings, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, rich places of the cities who are not financed by the drug, uh, and bland drugs like this, I mean, uh, entering into, into, uh, the, the legal, uh, housing market. So yes, corruption is really a key problem. And as you know, I mean, the worldwide, uh, drug markets, uh, is estimated between, uh, 350 and, uh, and 600 billions of, uh, of dollar.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
We speak generally from 500 to have a simple, a simple figure because it's, uh, it's underground. So we don't know exactly the only way is really to take as much as possible out of the criminal hands. What does that mean? That means regulation. That means that this market should be regulated by the state and not left in the hands of the cartel. So we, from the global commission on drug policy, uh, one of our five proposal is clearly to go step-by-step cautiously, but to go into the regulation of all drugs, it is important that, uh, such, uh, uh, that substances, that there are certain risks. And for some, it's a high risk for others, it's not, uh, such a, a great risk. I mean, cannabis, it is not worse than alcohol or, or tobacco, uh, but it can get worse if it is in criminal hands.

DEAN BECKER
And one last one I'd like to share with you, president Dreyfus is you mentioned the, was it three 50 to maybe $600 billion a year being earned by these cartels and gangs, and was never really presented much as the fact that over the decades, that becomes trillions of dollars that we have given to these criminals over the lifetime of this drug war, and no wonder they are able to move into human trafficking, as you say, and other means of crime and corruption, uh, w we're just feeding them, uh, in this this way, right?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
The state has no, right. I would say to interfere in a free decision of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, somebody, uh, but, uh, and to find, uh, kind of, uh, proper for Nate and, uh, yeah, I mean, what the, what is now the destiny of the people at the bottom, the dealers industry, uh, the farmers in the mountains and so on is absolutely disproportionate disproportionate in most countries. I mean, in Europe, we found, I would say, uh, uh, a way to be more purpose Jeanette, but, uh, we should really decriminalize. Uh, we should also find, uh, find ways I would say to show other possibilities of a living to these people and to, to cut the, I need, if I can say so to cut the summit from the bottom, it has, it makes no sense to hire us people let's say young dealers in the street, if they have no other possibilities of living, and to know that they will be replaced the day after by somebody else or that, uh, coming out of the jail would be perhaps, uh, an opportunity for a little promotion in this, uh, in this, uh Yarki.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So we have really, to, to find a ways to, yes, to break the business model, I would say of the organized crime, and this is attacking the summit, being a yes, offering to the basis, other opportunities and not pushing them in despair and marginalization, and, uh, building down the pure possibility, the, the, the poor possibilities they had at the beginning. They come in at eight in the consumption. I think this is a model we are promoting, and it, uh, we think it works. It will not be perfect. Not at all. It will not, uh, eliminate, uh, criminal organization, but it will be more human. It will be based on human rights. It will, it will be better on, uh, on the issue of public health. And, uh, it gives the opportunity to, um, to integrate people in society who now are just at the, at the margin regulation should also, uh, look at this.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
I mean, uh, we, uh, uh, from the commission, we are happy to see that at least two States in the United States who regulated the cannabis market, decided that former dealers should be, uh, receive an ethnicity and should be also those who can receive the permit in the legal cannabis market. This is, is very clever. It's very smart. Uh, it follows different purposes. The purpose of having, uh, a good market well regulated with a good quality of the product and so on. And it gives a chance for the people to enter into the legal, uh, and into the society.

DEAN BECKER
Well, there you have it friends, uh, we've been privileged to be speaking with, uh, president Ruth Dreifuss, former president of Switzerland. Um, one of the pioneers in the global commission on drugs policy, and one of my heroes for being so brave, courageous, and stepping forward to help end this madness. Thank you, president. Right.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Thank you. You are a hero, you know,

DEAN BECKER
Thank you for that.

 

12/19/23 Doctor Adeeba Kamarulzaman

Program
Century of Lies
Date
Guest
Doctor Adeeba Kamarulzaman
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

This week on Century of Lies: Synthetic Realities and the Iron Law of Prohibition The International Drug Policy Consortium recently hosted a fascinating discussion on new and emerging drugs entitled “Synthetic Realities: Global drug policies beyond the ‘new threat’ narrative.” On this edition of Century we hear from a few of the speakers including Doctor Adeeba Kamarulzaman Dean of the Faculty of Medicine and Professor of Medicine and Infectious Diseases at the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and a member of the Global Commission on Drug Policy;  Daan van der Gouwe, a Drug Markets Researcher at the Trimbos Instituut in the Netherlands; and Andrzej Celinski, a Contract Manager and Executive Administrator at the Canadian Association of People who Use Drugs.

Audio file

06/27/23 Dr. Khalid Tinasti

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Dr. Khalid Tinasti
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

Dr. Khalid Tinasti, Exec Dir of Global Commission on Drugs participates in video production of Seeking The Moral High Ground.

Audio file

Dean Becker (00:29) Well it gives me a great deal of satisfaction and pride actually, to be speaking with mr. [inaudible] tenacity. I believe I got that name right. He's the executive secretary with the global commission on drugs. And I want to welcome him to the show. Hello, Kaleel. Dr. Khalid Tenasti (01:06) Thank you, Dean. I'm very happy to be here with you. Dean Becker (01:08) Well, I, um, I've been following you guys, uh, for, well, I guess the 10 years or so that the global commission has been, uh, uh, in place. And if you will tell us a bit about the global commission on drug policy, what is it about? Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (01:23) Thank you very much, Dean. Actually, you're very right. The global commission has come out with its first report and has come out to the world in June, 2011 with its report called the war on drugs. And also the documentary movie that was going with a break into taboo. But if we really look into the origins of the global commission, they go back to 2000 to the end of 2007, when president Fernando Henrica DOSO of Brazil with presidents, former presidents is a DEO from Mexico and says that guy Vidya from Columbia came together to create the Latin American commission on drugs and democracy because of the risks that the response given to drugs has been putting on the institutions on democratization and empower in criminal organizations and in violence in cities and Latin and central America. And so these, these former presidents came together with a group of other intellectuals and offer former office holders and writers from Latin America to look into what are the issues and what recommendations they can come up with. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (02:23) And that's when they looked out into Europe. And so that Europe, by implementing harm reduction responses, decriminalization models for personal use and possession have been more successful in, in managing basically the presence and the consumption of drugs among society, although it was banned to some basically. And so this is how the global commission came together. And it was the meeting between the Latin Americans who have really were behind, you know, given that leadership to this discussion and the Europeans who came in as well and joined them as well. Other people with also mr. Kofi Annan from Africa, et cetera, the global commission has came up with this first analysis report in 2011 of course was not the first to say we have a problem with drugs. And that problem is also related to the policies to the control policies we put in place, but it was the first time that such high level people that were themselves for many in office back at the United nations general assembly special session in 1998, who had said that by 2008 will have the world free of drugs. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (03:25) So many of them were signatories and were in that meeting as representative of their countries as heads of States. And they have come up together for some of them who had been very good policies. And for some others who had really believed in prohibition to be able to help people came together to say, we have something that is wrong with the way we do it, because we, first of all, not achieving any of the results, consumption, trafficking, violence, um, production, you know, um, lack of rule of law corruption, uh, all sorts of, you know, infectious diseases, et cetera, are going up and really high up while we spend more and more on enforcement, et cetera. So there is a problem with maybe the use of drugs and that is something to be discussed in another area, but there is also a huge, huge consequences that add up in the way we do control policies. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (04:15) And so just very to finish up on the global commission because we're very fortunate. It has been renewed for the last nine years. We had many, many new people joining from former president Ramos Horta from two more or less day. We had mr. Bereday from the, uh, uh, atomic agency that, uh, the former director that has joined us from Egypt. We had mrs. Helen Clark from New Zealand. So it really took this big global, um, trend. And so it is people coming up from every part of the world and come into the same conclusion that the war on drugs and the way we try to control drugs through the refreshing alone and a law enforcement focus is adding up a lot of harms. So this is in a nutshell, I mean, I can go way beyond on this and what we do. It's that true? Dean Becker (04:59) No, that touched a lot of the bases. I probably would have inquired about a good summation if you will. And I thank you for that now. I don't know if you had a chance to look at my website, the conscientious objector page. Did you have a chance to look at it? Well, your response to what I put forward there, just in general. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (05:20) Yeah. I mean, well, in general, I mean, you have, I mean, when, when it is something, I mean, it is very difficult to object to the way you have looked into the issues and saying, what are the impacts of the way we look into or the way we try to control drugs or the way we control to make them disappear from society? I mean, we all agree of course, that there is a demand and there's a demand for psychosis, psychoactive substances through all over the world, the legal ones and the illegal ones. I mean, the whole system of saying what is legal and illegal is based on the potential of addictiveness of a, of a substance. Why do we live alcohol and tobacco outside of that and not have the same levels of control? So it is for sure to say that people look for psychoactive substances and there is a demand. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (06:02) So the supply will always follow because it's also a sustained demand. And the fact of trying to, to hide that reality and trying to break that reality and, and trying to live in a parallel world does create many, many issues. First of all, I mean, everyone, even the United nations recognized that recognizes this since 2008. And as you said, it, one of the, what we call the unintended consequences of the regime of control, which are, I mean, they've been recognized since 2008 and they still considered unintended. So the first of them is, is the black market itself and the illegal market. And the fact that the policy choice was to leave it in the hands of criminals and not have authorities or regulators taken that market and regulated it's regulated, it's access, limiting it depending on the substance, et cetera, et cetera. So all the impact to speak about what is going on in Latin America, what is going on in terms of funding of different groups, of different criminal groups. Those also sometimes engaged in Tara, although the evidence there is less clear, it's also more about opportunistic relationships in certain areas of the world, et cetera. So that is a clear vision of the real impacts actually in the big, big impacts of what is going on in the world. So thank you. Thank you Dean Becker (07:17) Before that. Uh, and yeah, I, I've devoted 20 years of my life of 60 hours a week. Really. I I've, uh, I've uh, uh, we reached the age of 50 and decided I wanted to leave something more positive behind for future generations. And if I can help move this equation, this situation to one of less harm to do one of two quit empowering the cartels, at least, uh, I think the terrorists, they grow marijuana and opium over there in Afghanistan, Lebanon, and I'm sure ISIS and the Taliban get a cut now. And then if, if not, uh, uh, billions outright. But, um, we have in these United States, we have led the way we were the ones who insisted the United nations take up this banner to March with this war on drugs. And for years we, um, four and eight, we had a requirement that they had to join forces with the drug war. It was the United nations, excuse me, it was the U S that that forced this drug war at least to such a degree on the rest of the world. And it is my hope that the United States can begin to undo that process to demand less of other nations and, and to, uh, create a situation where logic and common sense can get back into this rather than paranoia and delusion your response to your colleagues. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (08:40) Yeah, I mean, it is for certain, I mean, the United States has been the biggest, I mean, we can not limit the contribution. I mean, the, the contribution of the United States to, to the multilateral system and to the world and into spreading democracy, et cetera, is a huge one, but it goes in the war on drugs in the bad side. But I mean, it is a, it is everything. So maybe just to be less hard from the perspective of an international person and not to be less harsh, but just to neons the bit, I mean, the international drug system was built really. I mean, it is the conventions of drug policy are the very, almost the only ones that speak about an evil and evil of addiction. And so it was really built up in the sixties around when, when, when social hygiene, ism is a movement among doctors and politicians, teaching people how to, how to do not to catch infectious diseases, not to get to BRCA locis, to be cleaner, et cetera, not to get, you know, the basic, uh, infectious disease. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (09:38) So it was still the belief that you could through policies really change human behavior. And the problem with that system is that it continued like this, but it worked in a world that is very different. It never take into account the end of the eighties. It never take into account. The fact that border control has changed with world globalization and that we no longer speak about, you know, the same controls of the borders that are closed, et cetera, with the quantities of the goods of the people that are going around. I mean, we see it today with the Kobe, then the spread and the very rapid spread because people are moving, et cetera, et cetera. And when you lock down is different. So there is no more way to control as we used to do before, or what was intended in the sixties. There's also the fact that the HIV response for instance, has changed how we do public health approaches. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (10:22) You can no longer impose on a person. I mean, if we think about people that are dependent on any or another substance, you can no longer really impose on them a treatment or for them to adhere to a treatment, they have to choose it. And that was the case that was HIV brought about condoms are choice, and the patient becomes a partner and not someone you would tell to what to do. And it can actually, we continue it in the system because it fed so many different things and we've never had to change it now today. I mean, so I see that system as having been, you know, staying the same may be in the sixties. It was well-intended and it was to respond to a situation that was like that, but there is no renewable, there's no modernization of the tools when normally public policy has to evolve, of course, with scientific progress on human progress to adapt to the needs today. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (11:11) So it is the, in that sense where the reforms are very much needed because we know much better how to control them to eliminate doesn't expand or to regulate them to eliminate. And obviously what makes it very hard in which we're trying not to speak about it, to stay in a rational discussion is that the casualties are people and their lives and currently, so, but we try to remain also as pragmatic in the discussion as possible. Now, when you say about the United States that to change and to change at the global level, that would be fantastic because the problem that is now existing at the multilateral level is that the five countries with a permanent seat in the security council do agree altogether on the prohibition as the way to go. And no one of them is carrying the ideas of the reform or the discussion of the reform that changes a lot because those countries not only have a financial power and do have, you know, a, a very strong political power within the system, but it is also countries that do have real diplomatic network around the world that can work on their priorities. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (12:12) And that can work on this change little by little. I mean, this is something that will never happen overnight. We do have 50 years of something where everybody agreed where it was given to people as granted that this is evil, that people who use drugs are bad people, et cetera, et cetera, that elimination is the only way to say no to drugs, et cetera. So to undo all of that, to have a, it's almost a cultural shift that is needed to some extent, so it will take the time. And hopefully of course, when the reforms at the national level in the United States will evolve, we see it in different States trying so many different things to address the situations of the opiod crisis, but also the cannabis prohibition. And also sometimes, I mean, other substances being looked at, et cetera, when that will have also given the evidence on its function and et cetera, that performs we'll have to move up the ladder and hopefully until the international level. Yes. Thank you. Dean Becker (13:07) No, I, a couple of years back, I was able to go to Europe. I, uh, uh, and, and Lisbon Portugal, I was able to sit down with a doctor [inaudible] the, uh, the drugs are. And, uh, he and I had a great discussion. We just had another one last week as well for this production of, uh, seeking the moral high ground. And he has done something that is being emulated that is being copied around the world. That is the decriminalization of drugs, that there are no longer arrest for minor amounts of drugs that maybe you go for treatment. Maybe you go for a good talking to, uh, but, but nobody is arrested. And, and Canada is the police chiefs of Canada are wanting to copy that. Now the, uh, the head of the Canadian police chiefs came out and called for decriminalization of all drugs, uh, to follow suit to what Portugal has done. Dean Becker (13:59) And, uh, another topic that, uh, I, I went to Switzerland, I there met, uh, dr. Kristoff Berkey. He was one of the pioneers who designed their, uh, heroin injection program. They're now approaching 20 million injections of pure heroin. And, uh, they have had zero overdose deaths, which, which I think undoes the logic that we were talking about, what was created 50 years ago, drug users are bad and deserving of punishment. And I guess what I'm saying here is that changes a foot changes is being recognized as being of benefit, uh, and, and to do away with these old hysteria situations. I don't know if there's a question there other than it's a sign of progress is not. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (14:52) It is, it is. I mean, just think about it. This is, I mean, if you look at the policy area, even the discussion discussions that are becoming now very much mainstream, I mean, I would just give two examples. The first one is that, I mean, really it is about one of the areas of policy areas where the wrongs are being repaired very quickly. I mean, it's very difficult. It's very hard, but if we look at it, I mean, really with disabilities, to some extent it is the issue that has moved so much in the last 10, 15 years. It did being on the number of debates on the fact that we can speak about it. I mean, who could have seen, uh, marijuana legalized in so many who has space for recreational use, et cetera, and growing, and in a country like Canada at the federal level, et cetera. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (15:31) So that is one that has really, really very much evolved now. Um, I mean, the decriminalization is a way to move because there is absolutely no. Um, how do I say? Yeah, I mean, sorry, let me come back to the second example, because that was what was in my mind, I said two, I mean, the second one, if you compare now the coverage of the opioid crisis in the United States and the coverage of the crack crisis in the 1980s, I mean, the coverage is very different, even in the language and trying to look into what are the issues, et cetera. So it has indeed evolved. People will start understanding that addiction. I mean, we say dependence because we use the terminology of who, but addiction is the word in the United States that is still used, but here in Europe, we don't. So for us, addiction slash dependence is a chronic disease. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (16:22) That includes, that includes a relapse. So to some extent, that's why the global commission on drug policy does not agree with the drug courts that sends people into rehabilitation treatment, because that does not take into account that people do relapse and they would go to prison. Otherwise, if they do relapse instead. And also the fact that, of course, no judge should be taken a decision of a doctor to some extent. So I wanted, yeah, I mean, to say these two example, they do really evolve. And in Switzerland, the program of diamorphine that you were speaking about is a program that is extremely controlled. It is a health approach. It is, but the idea there was to say, we have, I mean, the, the, the very pragmatic discussion was, first of all, let's put in place all the services and to save people and let's evaluate them and see if they work or not. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (17:11) And of course, as you've said, there is a very strict monitoring and evaluation. That program is very difficult even to access because people have to have really a need of diamorphine and not be able to have the fin or methadone or other substitution treatments, then that's how they get there. But of course, now we have evaluation. You've spoken about Portugal, but there are so many different countries that have different models of, of decriminalization. Those commissions of this wage in the, in Portugal are a very, very interesting model because people still have to face somehow, you know, to talk to someone, to talk to many people and say, you know, and so they are conscious that this is not something that is easy. For example, in the Czech Republic is different. It's only a misdemeanor and you just get a fine, so there are many different models, but of course they have been proven. And I mean, there's evidence and there's evaluation. Dean Becker (17:58) Now. Um, the other news coming out of Canada, uh, a dr. Perry, Kendall, uh, he has 20 years experience as the British Columbia commissioner on substance abuse, something some titled to that effect, and he's now retiring, but he wants to start up a company to acquire heroin cheaply and to provide it cheaply to the users in Canada, uh, to kind of parallel, I guess what they've done in Switzerland. It's another sign of intelligence from my perspective, because in the U S I don't know, I think it was just over 70,000 people died last year from drug overdoses, because I closed my radio show with this side because of prohibition. You don't know what's in that bag, please be careful. And there's just so much truth. And I think heart in that phrase, your response here, Kaleo. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (18:51) Yeah. I mean, for us, I mean, those are two really. I mean, just to be again, Dean, I think that you are, of course this is, I mean, I haven't heard specifically about this idea of opening. I mean, they do have a heroin program that is not really a diamorphine programs. One Canada is not working very well, but nevertheless, I mean, those are two issues. So as far as the global commission is really concerned, I mean, diamorphine, if we take the example in Switzerland, it is a very medical program. I mean, this is with very much rules, regulations. People have to try at least twice and other substitution treatment. And it's really for people that are heavily dependent on the substance. So just for the people listening to know that this is something that is very medical and it is a medical procedure. So people go to a day clinic, you know, to get the diamorphine et cetera, which was fantastic because you're in COVID since people who inject drugs were considered as people that are vulnerable to COBIT infection. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (19:35) I mean, there were some very exceptions to deliver to their homes. The diamorphine, it was a great innovation to keep people alive here during the COVID lockdowns. Um, now on when we say, and, and you touched up on something that is so important, which is about the quality of what people buy or even knowing what they buy, if they are buying the right substance or not. But that is for us, this is the difficulty with this ideological difficulty against a harm reduction, because I mean, drug testing, et cetera, do exist. And those need to be allowed to be implemented at all levels at city level, at state level, at the federal level. Now there is also the issues of, um, I mean, a city like Amsterdam, or even here in Geneva, for example, where people who inject drugs and are dependent on drugs that go to services like safe injection facilities that go into, you know, different services, those people, they, if there is a problem, they can be caught very quickly and they could report what substance, what they bought it. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (20:31) And so the analysis goes very quickly and the services of the city, even in Amsterdam, they even put like ads in the street saying something is going on in the black market, do not buy this substance. And even here in Switzerland, for example, in Geneva and the communities, because they see what is going on at the safe injection room when they see people arriving. Because, but this is because people are not afraid to come forward because the cops are not going to be called because they're considered patients because they're given the services of harm reduction services, which allow people then to be sent to the doctors. If they have problems to see also the factors or to go into treatment, you know, people send them, so they do testing also for infectious diseases, et cetera, to send them afterwards to the hospital, to have it a regular treatment regimen. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:13) I mean, not for drugs, but if there's any other issue or if they want to enter into a cycle of treatment, because here we also have, the fact of everything is offered to people have to choose. They could choose the substitution treatment as maintenance for forever. If they can not get out of it, they could use it for a certain period. They can go to rehabilitation and abstinence. I mean, it really is about a therapeutic contract between the doctor and the patient. So it is not about imposing to people what they have to do, it's to help them choose how they get out of their difficult situation. And here again, we're talking only about people with heavy dependence that go to the services, et cetera. We're not talking about the vast majority, which is a recreational, which has no issues. And we don't see. So yeah, I mean, this is the fact of, that's why decriminalization is very interesting so that people can come forward so that the authorities have the information of what is going on in the market. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:55) And for example, some cities can just be in the United States saying like, we have, we have so many fentanyl on the streets, be careful of not buying this, et cetera, et cetera. And those are messages of prevention of course, and keeping people alive. Yeah. But that, that's very hard to do in a repressive environment where people are afraid of law enforcement everywhere in the world, you know, and I will, I think it's more, more powerful. The, the stigma here in the United States that, uh, I mean, you probably heard the phrase, you, if you're getting busted for drugs, you can no longer get a job, credited housing, an education. Uh, there are so many roadblocks put in your way. So many court fees and fines and other obstacles to creating a new life, a new process. And I guess what I'm saying here is that what you guys are doing in Europe and elsewhere, it shows intelligence. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (22:51) It shows that this is still a human being. It's still a life worthy of respect. And second chances, third chances, more chances. And, and here in the U S as well, once you get that stigma of a druggie, your life is facing a lot of obstacles. Well, I, there's also, I mean, that is, I totally agree with you. And there is no way, no way, no way to minimize the impacts of stigma and discrimination on people's lives. And most certainly on people that are in the most difficult situation to start with. Right. But I mean, and that stigma is more related. It's not only about drugs. I mean, let's be honest. It's about a lot of things. Drugs are cross-cutting issue. They touch upon so many wrong things in our societies. It also falls. I mean, even the implementation of drug laws is so arbitrary people that can afford to do it behind high walls that no one sees they do. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (23:43) And they don't, they're not impacted to get arrested, et cetera. They get people to deliver to their homes, et cetera, whatever they need. So it is also that nature of arbitrary that makes it very difficult. And it goes also again to all the populations, but I mean, people are starting to get aggressive with death and we are getting out of marijuana because, um, I don't know if this is positive or negative, but I saw the, um, uh, author of the wire, you know, the TV show. And he was speaking about Colorado in their experiment of the marijuana legalization. He was saying that he was worried because in an interview and he was saying, he was worried to some extent, because we are getting out the people that have the political voice, the college white college students, we're getting them out of this, of the prohibition, if we legalize cannabis, because in my want, because that's their substance and what is going to be the issue with other people that use other drugs and do not have that same voice that do not have that same social status and class, and that do not have that same presence in the public debate. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (24:35) So it is so drugs are used a lot as a bond for a lot of things as well, but those are also issues that are related to the socioeconomic, to the ethnic et cetera issues. And that is not only in the United States, that is the case in the United Kingdom. That is the case in France. That is the case in the Russian Federation, where more people that are arrested do not have Slavic names. They have other names. This is the case everywhere. You know, I mean, you can look at it in every perspective and countries of the South countries of the North, the rich countries, et cetera, when you have something that is, that has been so stigmatized and built being built. That's why I said the convention speak about addiction as evil. So this is the state of spirit that we have since the very beginning into this discussion at the time, also to remember that, of course, as I said, maybe the intentions were good, maybe not, but to some extent at the time Europe was in reconstruction, um, the many countries in the South we're getting there, we're getting there decolonized. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (25:29) This is where to thinking about the sixties. I mean, most of Africa has been getting its independence in 1960, et cetera. And of course the United States was becoming the cultural hedge amount around the world, et cetera. And so that was what, the kind of spirit that went everywhere that went everywhere, which is really funny because at the same time, alcohol and tobacco were glorified and were sold and pushed through marketing, et cetera. So, and this is the spirit that was still fine today, almost everywhere. It is the case in the United States versus very sad because the United States, of course, I mean, people have more access to education, to information more easily, et cetera. And they should get a little bit more informed on the issues to understand also, I mean, I mean, problematic drug use is not far away from anyone's life. Anyone can fall into different circumstances, you know? Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (26:15) And so people have to look at it into a perspective from a societal societal perspective. What kind of societies do we want is these injustices that are not very far from anyone and the opiod crisis shows it. I mean, people from all social classes die, people suffer from everywhere, et cetera. So it is about getting informed about what kind of societies will want together. This is why the global commission has always called since the very beginning for, um, net for local national stay, you know, consultations people around the table, talking get in parents of children, getting the police, getting school teachers, getting people who use drugs, get in, uh, health workers, social workers, uh, prosecutors, everyone around the table so that everyone can hear the concerns of everyone. I mean, this is a one society. People have to sit together and find the issue. And this is what happened in Switzerland actually to prepare the national policy of the four pillars, which is a prevention treatment harm reduction repression. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (27:11) So this is how drug policy is handled here is the four pillars. And so that was based on many, many, many federal kind of tonal because it's also here, a federal country, fentanyl and local, uh, consultations and discussions where people would come in and say their issues about Lake, you know, the neighborhoods with, with the syringes in the street, uh, people being afraid because the syringes are near the parks where the children play the perspective of the police, the perspective of the prosecutors. And, you know, so everyone has to come together to find a consensus, to some extent and advance the issues little by little. But I mean, again, just to say, it's been 50 years of, you know, making the same nod and it's so big now that it has to be done a little by little by little by little, because whenever you try to do something so quick, the unintended consequences become very big because drug policy is so cross cut into so many other issues to health, to housing, to employment, you know, it is with a person. So it touches upon everything. Dean Becker (28:11) What you bring forward there. I want to kind of delve into, and that is the cantons I guess, are the sub governmental agencies and whatever, but we haven't United States. We have the 50 States, we've got cities counties. And then, then we have, uh, governors versus state congresses, et cetera, people battling on this issue. But what, what, uh, where the changes are being made are on the local level cities deciding they're not going to enforce a law as vigorously or in the same way as they did before my city of Houston being a prime example, um, you can have up to four ounces of marijuana now and not be arrested. You get a ticket and you got to take a class and that's in essence, contrary to state law, or I dunno, skirts the state law in some fashion. And I guess what I want to bring forward is that at the national level, the federal level, we have just a handful of people. Dean Becker (29:15) The, the U S attorney general, the head of the DEA, the head of the office of national drug control policy, a few others who have this quote authority whose pronouncements ensure that these drug laws continue forever because they, they quote have the moral authority. They know what in the heck they're doing. And I would love the opportunity to have five minutes to show. They don't have a clue what they're doing because they, they, they don't care how many people die. How, how many kids have access, how many gangs and terrorists are funded. They just do not care about that. They have a mandate that's as you say, that started out 50 years ago as being, you know, sanctified and pure, but it has been shown to be nothing but madness from my perspective, you know, your responsibility. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (30:05) Well, I mean, the impacts are the impacts of the prohibition on the war, on drugs and being very repressive can not be concealed. dtnadmin Sat, 11/07/2020 - 07:11 Permalink TRANSCRIPT Dean Becker (00:29) Well it gives me a great deal of satisfaction and pride actually, to be speaking with mr. [inaudible] tenacity. I believe I got that name right. He's the executive secretary with the global commission on drugs. And I want to welcome him to the show. Hello, Kaleel. Dr. Khalid Tenasti (01:06) Thank you, Dean. I'm very happy to be here with you. Dean Becker (01:08) Well, I, um, I've been following you guys, uh, for, well, I guess the 10 years or so that the global commission has been, uh, uh, in place. And if you will tell us a bit about the global commission on drug policy, what is it about? Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (01:23) Thank you very much, Dean. Actually, you're very right. The global commission has come out with its first report and has come out to the world in June, 2011 with its report called the war on drugs. And also the documentary movie that was going with a break into taboo. But if we really look into the origins of the global commission, they go back to 2000 to the end of 2007, when president Fernando Henrica DOSO of Brazil with presidents, former presidents is a DEO from Mexico and says that guy Vidya from Columbia came together to create the Latin American commission on drugs and democracy because of the risks that the response given to drugs has been putting on the institutions on democratization and empower in criminal organizations and in violence in cities and Latin and central America. And so these, these former presidents came together with a group of other intellectuals and offer former office holders and writers from Latin America to look into what are the issues and what recommendations they can come up with. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (02:23) And that's when they looked out into Europe. And so that Europe, by implementing harm reduction responses, decriminalization models for personal use and possession have been more successful in, in managing basically the presence and the consumption of drugs among society, although it was banned to some basically. And so this is how the global commission came together. And it was the meeting between the Latin Americans who have really were behind, you know, given that leadership to this discussion and the Europeans who came in as well and joined them as well. Other people with also mr. Kofi Annan from Africa, et cetera, the global commission has came up with this first analysis report in 2011 of course was not the first to say we have a problem with drugs. And that problem is also related to the policies to the control policies we put in place, but it was the first time that such high level people that were themselves for many in office back at the United nations general assembly special session in 1998, who had said that by 2008 will have the world free of drugs. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (03:25) So many of them were signatories and were in that meeting as representative of their countries as heads of States. And they have come up together for some of them who had been very good policies. And for some others who had really believed in prohibition to be able to help people came together to say, we have something that is wrong with the way we do it, because we, first of all, not achieving any of the results, consumption, trafficking, violence, um, production, you know, um, lack of rule of law corruption, uh, all sorts of, you know, infectious diseases, et cetera, are going up and really high up while we spend more and more on enforcement, et cetera. So there is a problem with maybe the use of drugs and that is something to be discussed in another area, but there is also a huge, huge consequences that add up in the way we do control policies. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (04:15) And so just very to finish up on the global commission because we're very fortunate. It has been renewed for the last nine years. We had many, many new people joining from former president Ramos Horta from two more or less day. We had mr. Bereday from the, uh, uh, atomic agency that, uh, the former director that has joined us from Egypt. We had mrs. Helen Clark from New Zealand. So it really took this big global, um, trend. And so it is people coming up from every part of the world and come into the same conclusion that the war on drugs and the way we try to control drugs through the refreshing alone and a law enforcement focus is adding up a lot of harms. So this is in a nutshell, I mean, I can go way beyond on this and what we do. It's that true? Dean Becker (04:59) No, that touched a lot of the bases. I probably would have inquired about a good summation if you will. And I thank you for that now. I don't know if you had a chance to look at my website, the conscientious objector page. Did you have a chance to look at it? Well, your response to what I put forward there, just in general. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (05:20) Yeah. I mean, well, in general, I mean, you have, I mean, when, when it is something, I mean, it is very difficult to object to the way you have looked into the issues and saying, what are the impacts of the way we look into or the way we try to control drugs or the way we control to make them disappear from society? I mean, we all agree of course, that there is a demand and there's a demand for psychosis, psychoactive substances through all over the world, the legal ones and the illegal ones. I mean, the whole system of saying what is legal and illegal is based on the potential of addictiveness of a, of a substance. Why do we live alcohol and tobacco outside of that and not have the same levels of control? So it is for sure to say that people look for psychoactive substances and there is a demand. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (06:02) So the supply will always follow because it's also a sustained demand. And the fact of trying to, to hide that reality and trying to break that reality and, and trying to live in a parallel world does create many, many issues. First of all, I mean, everyone, even the United nations recognized that recognizes this since 2008. And as you said, it, one of the, what we call the unintended consequences of the regime of control, which are, I mean, they've been recognized since 2008 and they still considered unintended. So the first of them is, is the black market itself and the illegal market. And the fact that the policy choice was to leave it in the hands of criminals and not have authorities or regulators taken that market and regulated it's regulated, it's access, limiting it depending on the substance, et cetera, et cetera. So all the impact to speak about what is going on in Latin America, what is going on in terms of funding of different groups, of different criminal groups. Those also sometimes engaged in Tara, although the evidence there is less clear, it's also more about opportunistic relationships in certain areas of the world, et cetera. So that is a clear vision of the real impacts actually in the big, big impacts of what is going on in the world. So thank you. Thank you Dean Becker (07:17) Before that. Uh, and yeah, I, I've devoted 20 years of my life of 60 hours a week. Really. I I've, uh, I've uh, uh, we reached the age of 50 and decided I wanted to leave something more positive behind for future generations. And if I can help move this equation, this situation to one of less harm to do one of two quit empowering the cartels, at least, uh, I think the terrorists, they grow marijuana and opium over there in Afghanistan, Lebanon, and I'm sure ISIS and the Taliban get a cut now. And then if, if not, uh, uh, billions outright. But, um, we have in these United States, we have led the way we were the ones who insisted the United nations take up this banner to March with this war on drugs. And for years we, um, four and eight, we had a requirement that they had to join forces with the drug war. It was the United nations, excuse me, it was the U S that that forced this drug war at least to such a degree on the rest of the world. And it is my hope that the United States can begin to undo that process to demand less of other nations and, and to, uh, create a situation where logic and common sense can get back into this rather than paranoia and delusion your response to your colleagues. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (08:40) Yeah, I mean, it is for certain, I mean, the United States has been the biggest, I mean, we can not limit the contribution. I mean, the, the contribution of the United States to, to the multilateral system and to the world and into spreading democracy, et cetera, is a huge one, but it goes in the war on drugs in the bad side. But I mean, it is a, it is everything. So maybe just to be less hard from the perspective of an international person and not to be less harsh, but just to neons the bit, I mean, the international drug system was built really. I mean, it is the conventions of drug policy are the very, almost the only ones that speak about an evil and evil of addiction. And so it was really built up in the sixties around when, when, when social hygiene, ism is a movement among doctors and politicians, teaching people how to, how to do not to catch infectious diseases, not to get to BRCA locis, to be cleaner, et cetera, not to get, you know, the basic, uh, infectious disease. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (09:38) So it was still the belief that you could through policies really change human behavior. And the problem with that system is that it continued like this, but it worked in a world that is very different. It never take into account the end of the eighties. It never take into account. The fact that border control has changed with world globalization and that we no longer speak about, you know, the same controls of the borders that are closed, et cetera, with the quantities of the goods of the people that are going around. I mean, we see it today with the Kobe, then the spread and the very rapid spread because people are moving, et cetera, et cetera. And when you lock down is different. So there is no more way to control as we used to do before, or what was intended in the sixties. There's also the fact that the HIV response for instance, has changed how we do public health approaches. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (10:22) You can no longer impose on a person. I mean, if we think about people that are dependent on any or another substance, you can no longer really impose on them a treatment or for them to adhere to a treatment, they have to choose it. And that was the case that was HIV brought about condoms are choice, and the patient becomes a partner and not someone you would tell to what to do. And it can actually, we continue it in the system because it fed so many different things and we've never had to change it now today. I mean, so I see that system as having been, you know, staying the same may be in the sixties. It was well-intended and it was to respond to a situation that was like that, but there is no renewable, there's no modernization of the tools when normally public policy has to evolve, of course, with scientific progress on human progress to adapt to the needs today. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (11:11) So it is the, in that sense where the reforms are very much needed because we know much better how to control them to eliminate doesn't expand or to regulate them to eliminate. And obviously what makes it very hard in which we're trying not to speak about it, to stay in a rational discussion is that the casualties are people and their lives and currently, so, but we try to remain also as pragmatic in the discussion as possible. Now, when you say about the United States that to change and to change at the global level, that would be fantastic because the problem that is now existing at the multilateral level is that the five countries with a permanent seat in the security council do agree altogether on the prohibition as the way to go. And no one of them is carrying the ideas of the reform or the discussion of the reform that changes a lot because those countries not only have a financial power and do have, you know, a, a very strong political power within the system, but it is also countries that do have real diplomatic network around the world that can work on their priorities. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (12:12) And that can work on this change little by little. I mean, this is something that will never happen overnight. We do have 50 years of something where everybody agreed where it was given to people as granted that this is evil, that people who use drugs are bad people, et cetera, et cetera, that elimination is the only way to say no to drugs, et cetera. So to undo all of that, to have a, it's almost a cultural shift that is needed to some extent, so it will take the time. And hopefully of course, when the reforms at the national level in the United States will evolve, we see it in different States trying so many different things to address the situations of the opiod crisis, but also the cannabis prohibition. And also sometimes, I mean, other substances being looked at, et cetera, when that will have also given the evidence on its function and et cetera, that performs we'll have to move up the ladder and hopefully until the international level. Yes. Thank you. Dean Becker (13:07) No, I, a couple of years back, I was able to go to Europe. I, uh, uh, and, and Lisbon Portugal, I was able to sit down with a doctor [inaudible] the, uh, the drugs are. And, uh, he and I had a great discussion. We just had another one last week as well for this production of, uh, seeking the moral high ground. And he has done something that is being emulated that is being copied around the world. That is the decriminalization of drugs, that there are no longer arrest for minor amounts of drugs that maybe you go for treatment. Maybe you go for a good talking to, uh, but, but nobody is arrested. And, and Canada is the police chiefs of Canada are wanting to copy that. Now the, uh, the head of the Canadian police chiefs came out and called for decriminalization of all drugs, uh, to follow suit to what Portugal has done. Dean Becker (13:59) And, uh, another topic that, uh, I, I went to Switzerland, I there met, uh, dr. Kristoff Berkey. He was one of the pioneers who designed their, uh, heroin injection program. They're now approaching 20 million injections of pure heroin. And, uh, they have had zero overdose deaths, which, which I think undoes the logic that we were talking about, what was created 50 years ago, drug users are bad and deserving of punishment. And I guess what I'm saying here is that changes a foot changes is being recognized as being of benefit, uh, and, and to do away with these old hysteria situations. I don't know if there's a question there other than it's a sign of progress is not. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (14:52) It is, it is. I mean, just think about it. This is, I mean, if you look at the policy area, even the discussion discussions that are becoming now very much mainstream, I mean, I would just give two examples. The first one is that, I mean, really it is about one of the areas of policy areas where the wrongs are being repaired very quickly. I mean, it's very difficult. It's very hard, but if we look at it, I mean, really with disabilities, to some extent it is the issue that has moved so much in the last 10, 15 years. It did being on the number of debates on the fact that we can speak about it. I mean, who could have seen, uh, marijuana legalized in so many who has space for recreational use, et cetera, and growing, and in a country like Canada at the federal level, et cetera. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (15:31) So that is one that has really, really very much evolved now. Um, I mean, the decriminalization is a way to move because there is absolutely no. Um, how do I say? Yeah, I mean, sorry, let me come back to the second example, because that was what was in my mind, I said two, I mean, the second one, if you compare now the coverage of the opioid crisis in the United States and the coverage of the crack crisis in the 1980s, I mean, the coverage is very different, even in the language and trying to look into what are the issues, et cetera. So it has indeed evolved. People will start understanding that addiction. I mean, we say dependence because we use the terminology of who, but addiction is the word in the United States that is still used, but here in Europe, we don't. So for us, addiction slash dependence is a chronic disease. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (16:22) That includes, that includes a relapse. So to some extent, that's why the global commission on drug policy does not agree with the drug courts that sends people into rehabilitation treatment, because that does not take into account that people do relapse and they would go to prison. Otherwise, if they do relapse instead. And also the fact that, of course, no judge should be taken a decision of a doctor to some extent. So I wanted, yeah, I mean, to say these two example, they do really evolve. And in Switzerland, the program of diamorphine that you were speaking about is a program that is extremely controlled. It is a health approach. It is, but the idea there was to say, we have, I mean, the, the, the very pragmatic discussion was, first of all, let's put in place all the services and to save people and let's evaluate them and see if they work or not. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (17:11) And of course, as you've said, there is a very strict monitoring and evaluation. That program is very difficult even to access because people have to have really a need of diamorphine and not be able to have the fin or methadone or other substitution treatments, then that's how they get there. But of course, now we have evaluation. You've spoken about Portugal, but there are so many different countries that have different models of, of decriminalization. Those commissions of this wage in the, in Portugal are a very, very interesting model because people still have to face somehow, you know, to talk to someone, to talk to many people and say, you know, and so they are conscious that this is not something that is easy. For example, in the Czech Republic is different. It's only a misdemeanor and you just get a fine, so there are many different models, but of course they have been proven. And I mean, there's evidence and there's evaluation. Dean Becker (17:58) Now. Um, the other news coming out of Canada, uh, a dr. Perry, Kendall, uh, he has 20 years experience as the British Columbia commissioner on substance abuse, something some titled to that effect, and he's now retiring, but he wants to start up a company to acquire heroin cheaply and to provide it cheaply to the users in Canada, uh, to kind of parallel, I guess what they've done in Switzerland. It's another sign of intelligence from my perspective, because in the U S I don't know, I think it was just over 70,000 people died last year from drug overdoses, because I closed my radio show with this side because of prohibition. You don't know what's in that bag, please be careful. And there's just so much truth. And I think heart in that phrase, your response here, Kaleo. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (18:51) Yeah. I mean, for us, I mean, those are two really. I mean, just to be again, Dean, I think that you are, of course this is, I mean, I haven't heard specifically about this idea of opening. I mean, they do have a heroin program that is not really a diamorphine programs. One Canada is not working very well, but nevertheless, I mean, those are two issues. So as far as the global commission is really concerned, I mean, diamorphine, if we take the example in Switzerland, it is a very medical program. I mean, this is with very much rules, regulations. People have to try at least twice and other substitution treatment. And it's really for people that are heavily dependent on the substance. So just for the people listening to know that this is something that is very medical and it is a medical procedure. So people go to a day clinic, you know, to get the diamorphine et cetera, which was fantastic because you're in COVID since people who inject drugs were considered as people that are vulnerable to COBIT infection. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (19:35) I mean, there were some very exceptions to deliver to their homes. The diamorphine, it was a great innovation to keep people alive here during the COVID lockdowns. Um, now on when we say, and, and you touched up on something that is so important, which is about the quality of what people buy or even knowing what they buy, if they are buying the right substance or not. But that is for us, this is the difficulty with this ideological difficulty against a harm reduction, because I mean, drug testing, et cetera, do exist. And those need to be allowed to be implemented at all levels at city level, at state level, at the federal level. Now there is also the issues of, um, I mean, a city like Amsterdam, or even here in Geneva, for example, where people who inject drugs and are dependent on drugs that go to services like safe injection facilities that go into, you know, different services, those people, they, if there is a problem, they can be caught very quickly and they could report what substance, what they bought it. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (20:31) And so the analysis goes very quickly and the services of the city, even in Amsterdam, they even put like ads in the street saying something is going on in the black market, do not buy this substance. And even here in Switzerland, for example, in Geneva and the communities, because they see what is going on at the safe injection room when they see people arriving. Because, but this is because people are not afraid to come forward because the cops are not going to be called because they're considered patients because they're given the services of harm reduction services, which allow people then to be sent to the doctors. If they have problems to see also the factors or to go into treatment, you know, people send them, so they do testing also for infectious diseases, et cetera, to send them afterwards to the hospital, to have it a regular treatment regimen. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:13) I mean, not for drugs, but if there's any other issue or if they want to enter into a cycle of treatment, because here we also have, the fact of everything is offered to people have to choose. They could choose the substitution treatment as maintenance for forever. If they can not get out of it, they could use it for a certain period. They can go to rehabilitation and abstinence. I mean, it really is about a therapeutic contract between the doctor and the patient. So it is not about imposing to people what they have to do, it's to help them choose how they get out of their difficult situation. And here again, we're talking only about people with heavy dependence that go to the services, et cetera. We're not talking about the vast majority, which is a recreational, which has no issues. And we don't see. So yeah, I mean, this is the fact of, that's why decriminalization is very interesting so that people can come forward so that the authorities have the information of what is going on in the market. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:55) And for example, some cities can just be in the United States saying like, we have, we have so many fentanyl on the streets, be careful of not buying this, et cetera, et cetera. And those are messages of prevention of course, and keeping people alive. Yeah. But that, that's very hard to do in a repressive environment where people are afraid of law enforcement everywhere in the world, you know, and I will, I think it's more, more powerful. The, the stigma here in the United States that, uh, I mean, you probably heard the phrase, you, if you're getting busted for drugs, you can no longer get a job, credited housing, an education. Uh, there are so many roadblocks put in your way. So many court fees and fines and other obstacles to creating a new life, a new process. And I guess what I'm saying here is that what you guys are doing in Europe and elsewhere, it shows intelligence. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (22:51) It shows that this is still a human being. It's still a life worthy of respect. And second chances, third chances, more chances. And, and here in the U S as well, once you get that stigma of a druggie, your life is facing a lot of obstacles. Well, I, there's also, I mean, that is, I totally agree with you. And there is no way, no way, no way to minimize the impacts of stigma and discrimination on people's lives. And most certainly on people that are in the most difficult situation to start with. Right. But I mean, and that stigma is more related. It's not only about drugs. I mean, let's be honest. It's about a lot of things. Drugs are cross-cutting issue. They touch upon so many wrong things in our societies. It also falls. I mean, even the implementation of drug laws is so arbitrary people that can afford to do it behind high walls that no one sees they do. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (23:43) And they don't, they're not impacted to get arrested, et cetera. They get people to deliver to their homes, et cetera, whatever they need. So it is also that nature of arbitrary that makes it very difficult. And it goes also again to all the populations, but I mean, people are starting to get aggressive with death and we are getting out of marijuana because, um, I don't know if this is positive or negative, but I saw the, um, uh, author of the wire, you know, the TV show. And he was speaking about Colorado in their experiment of the marijuana legalization. He was saying that he was worried because in an interview and he was saying, he was worried to some extent, because we are getting out the people that have the political voice, the college white college students, we're getting them out of this, of the prohibition, if we legalize cannabis, because in my want, because that's their substance and what is going to be the issue with other people that use other drugs and do not have that same voice that do not have that same social status and class, and that do not have that same presence in the public debate. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (24:35) So it is so drugs are used a lot as a bond for a lot of things as well, but those are also issues that are related to the socioeconomic, to the ethnic et cetera issues. And that is not only in the United States, that is the case in the United Kingdom. That is the case in France. That is the case in the Russian Federation, where more people that are arrested do not have Slavic names. They have other names. This is the case everywhere. You know, I mean, you can look at it in every perspective and countries of the South countries of the North, the rich countries, et cetera, when you have something that is, that has been so stigmatized and built being built. That's why I said the convention speak about addiction as evil. So this is the state of spirit that we have since the very beginning into this discussion at the time, also to remember that, of course, as I said, maybe the intentions were good, maybe not, but to some extent at the time Europe was in reconstruction, um, the many countries in the South we're getting there, we're getting there decolonized. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (25:29) This is where to thinking about the sixties. I mean, most of Africa has been getting its independence in 1960, et cetera. And of course the United States was becoming the cultural hedge amount around the world, et cetera. And so that was what, the kind of spirit that went everywhere that went everywhere, which is really funny because at the same time, alcohol and tobacco were glorified and were sold and pushed through marketing, et cetera. So, and this is the spirit that was still fine today, almost everywhere. It is the case in the United States versus very sad because the United States, of course, I mean, people have more access to education, to information more easily, et cetera. And they should get a little bit more informed on the issues to understand also, I mean, I mean, problematic drug use is not far away from anyone's life. Anyone can fall into different circumstances, you know? Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (26:15) And so people have to look at it into a perspective from a societal societal perspective. What kind of societies do we want is these injustices that are not very far from anyone and the opiod crisis shows it. I mean, people from all social classes die, people suffer from everywhere, et cetera. So it is about getting informed about what kind of societies will want together. This is why the global commission has always called since the very beginning for, um, net for local national stay, you know, consultations people around the table, talking get in parents of children, getting the police, getting school teachers, getting people who use drugs, get in, uh, health workers, social workers, uh, prosecutors, everyone around the table so that everyone can hear the concerns of everyone. I mean, this is a one society. People have to sit together and find the issue. And this is what happened in Switzerland actually to prepare the national policy of the four pillars, which is a prevention treatment harm reduction repression. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (27:11) So this is how drug policy is handled here is the four pillars. And so that was based on many, many, many federal kind of tonal because it's also here, a federal country, fentanyl and local, uh, consultations and discussions where people would come in and say their issues about Lake, you know, the neighborhoods with, with the syringes in the street, uh, people being afraid because the syringes are near the parks where the children play the perspective of the police, the perspective of the prosecutors. And, you know, so everyone has to come together to find a consensus, to some extent and advance the issues little by little. But I mean, again, just to say, it's been 50 years of, you know, making the same nod and it's so big now that it has to be done a little by little by little by little, because whenever you try to do something so quick, the unintended consequences become very big because drug policy is so cross cut into so many other issues to health, to housing, to employment, you know, it is with a person. So it touches upon everything. Dean Becker (28:11) What you bring forward there. I want to kind of delve into, and that is the cantons I guess, are the sub governmental agencies and whatever, but we haven't United States. We have the 50 States, we've got cities counties. And then, then we have, uh, governors versus state congresses, et cetera, people battling on this issue. But what, what, uh, where the changes are being made are on the local level cities deciding they're not going to enforce a law as vigorously or in the same way as they did before my city of Houston being a prime example, um, you can have up to four ounces of marijuana now and not be arrested. You get a ticket and you got to take a class and that's in essence, contrary to state law, or I dunno, skirts the state law in some fashion. And I guess what I want to bring forward is that at the national level, the federal level, we have just a handful of people. Dean Becker (29:15) The, the U S attorney general, the head of the DEA, the head of the office of national drug control policy, a few others who have this quote authority whose pronouncements ensure that these drug laws continue forever because they, they quote have the moral authority. They know what in the heck they're doing. And I would love the opportunity to have five minutes to show. They don't have a clue what they're doing because they, they, they don't care how many people die. How, how many kids have access, how many gangs and terrorists are funded. They just do not care about that. They have a mandate that's as you say, that started out 50 years ago as being, you know, sanctified and pure, but it has been shown to be nothing but madness from my perspective, you know, your responsibility. Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (30:05) Well, I mean, the impacts are the impacts of the prohibition on the war, on drugs and being very repressive can not be concealed.

05/09/23 Ruth Dreifuss

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Ruth Dreifuss
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

President Ruth Dreifuss is our guest.  She was President of Switzerland and a founding member of the Global Commission on Drug Policy.  Dr. Dreifuss is a Swiss politician affiliated with the Social Democratic Party. She was a member of the Swiss Federal Council from 1993 to 2002, representing the Canton of Geneva.

Audio file

02/03/21 Ruth Dreifuss

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Ruth Dreifuss
Organization
Global Commission on Drug Policy

Ruth Dreifuss, who in 1999 was the first woman to hold the Swiss presidency, is the founder and president of the Global Commission on Drug Policy. The commission wants “responsible state control, from production to consumption of drugs” but that the opposite is now the case. “It’s an unregulated market in the hands of criminal groups.”

Audio file

DEAN BECKER
I, I feel it's quite a privilege and honor, truthfully today. We're going to be speaking with the former president of Switzerland, um, Ruth Dreifuss, and she's with us now. Hello, president, uh, Dreyfus. How are you?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Fine. Fine. Happy to be with you. Thank you for the invitation.

DEAN BECKER
Well, and, and thank you. And, um, you know, but besides having been a past president of Switzerland, you are also a, a pioneer, if you will. Uh, one of the founders, one of those who, uh, helped to form the global commission on drugs. Uh, am I correct? Ma'am yes. Yes ma'am. And, and tell us a little bit about the history of that, how it came to be and why it came to be, I guess,

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, the, the beginning of the whole, uh, trip, if I can say, so was in Latin America, there was a commission on a track and democracy, uh, lead, lead it by, uh, three from a president president, uh, uh, [inaudible] president [inaudible] from Columbia and president the deal from, uh, Mexico, but also many cultural leaders and economic leaders, uh, who, uh, were just, uh, amazed about the link between drug policy, uh, the presence of dragons society and the threat for democracy, uh, institution were corrupted by the drug trafficking organization. Um, money-laundering, uh, was, uh, on the, also on, on one of the big problem, but the biggest problem was the violence, the violence that was between, uh, different gangs, but also between the state and the gangs between different, uh, so-called, uh, law enforcement organizations, some of them on the side of the gangs and the others fighting against them.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Um, and this was a real war and a war that was a demented, but what we call the war on drugs, which is the militarization of the system, the harsh repression, uh, without having any positive aspect, uh, on the whole issue. So this, uh, commission and it's a report, uh, 2009, where really, uh, an effort to break the taboo to show the consequences of failed policies. And this was I think, a very important step in the awareness about what drug policy and drugs can do to a society. But in the meantime, our Latin American fellows had a look to you hub. And so that in your hope also, uh, the discussion was the debate was open and, uh, some solution in the field of public health, where, uh, in experiments that were very important in, in many, many countries in Porto gal, uh, for the decriminalization in, uh, Switzerland, Germany and others country for a public health approach, bringing new kinds of treatments, new, new kind of harm reduction measures, inventing really new approaches.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So in, uh, 2011, these two groups met to create the global commission on drug policy. And since then we expanded to other continents to Africa, to Asia, to Oceania. And, uh, I think we can say more or less that we are really a global movement, a global movement of, uh, citizen world citizen who think that, uh, it is their commitment to, uh, promote reforms in drug policy. We have now, uh, 26, I think, members, uh, of which a blush, but a group is, uh, constituted by former head of States, uh, from a head of governments. Hi, uh, uh, how civil servant of the multilateral system.

DEAN BECKER
And, um, first off, I just have to commend you and praise you. I, uh, I've been at this for more than 20 years. I've, uh, beat my head against the wall, so to speak. Uh, so often here in the United States, there are so few people and especially the higher you reach in authority. Um, there are few people willing to even begin to discuss this subject. I have broached that subject. I have made great progress in my city with the district attorney that the sheriff, the police chief, I think they understand it. They grasp the concept that the drug war is a miserable failure, and yet at the higher echelon. And I have great hopes that the Biden administration will take some steps along this path, but at the higher echelon, it's just been non-existent and you have had, I would hope the opportunity to speak to some us officials about this situation. Why is there such a roadblock here? Is it that we run the drug war in essence, around the world? We have demanded through the United nations that it exists. Can we just not back down now, get your thoughts there, uh, president please.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, I think, uh, the difficulty to, to make the paths of reforms is linked with a hundred year fight against substances that are the CLA declared illegal. And, uh, it began with opium and it was at the beginning really also a colonial, uh, feature, uh, and the fight between us, you know, the British and the China war on opium and so on. But, uh, the, the difficulty were cemented, I would say by the international convention and the UN flag, uh, that begins in 61 convention, 71 for a second one and, uh, 18, uh, 1988 for the third one. And then from one to the other, I would say the repressive system, the prohibition got stronger and stronger. Now these three convention are among the international multi-lateral convention that have Mo most, uh, received ratification. And, uh, there is really a difficulty to break this false consensus, uh, around the convention.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Why do I say it's a false consensus because the need for the different countries are, uh, very different. I mean, also, and, uh, the, there is a pressure to keep this, uh, international controlled regime also under the pressure from some, uh, very important countries, the important countries being, for instance, the United States of America, with the possibility of a torsion, if countries are not doing what they, uh, uh, comply to do with the ratification of the convention, because, uh, the other element is that all this history of, uh, generalizing yeah, making it an evil, uh, by the, from the drugs have also created a perception among the public opinion about what the drugs are, even if they are not what they seem to understand. So, uh, there is a whole history of, uh, false, uh, perception of discrimination of the people who use draw of stigmatization of the drug, uh, drug users.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
And it is important to say that a scientific basis to, uh, make this difference between legal and illegal and to make the difference between the substances that are more severely controlled, that owners lack the scientific basis. I mean, they are the reflection of, uh, which kind of products are socially accepted and economically, perhaps also very, uh, uh, they effective in the, in the legal market like tobacco or alcohol and the others that are, uh, prohibited. And in this sense also left in criminal hands. So it's a, a long history, and this is probably the reason why it is difficult to change the mindset, uh, of the people. So the fight against stigmatization, the fight against, uh, stigmatization, which is totally linked with the fight for the DEC criminalization of the consumption of drugs is, uh, uh, in my view, one of the biggest, uh, priority and past to, to go further.

DEAN BECKER
Yes. Thank you. That and the folks, um, to remind you, we are speaking with Ruth Dreifuss, she's a former president of Switzerland, one of the pioneers of the global commission on drugs policy, um, president Dreyfus. I want to back up a little bit, you were talking about the violence, uh, in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, these, it hasn't gotten better during this COVID. I was just reading some stories that, uh, uh, halfway through last year, they had, um, uh, 17,000 deaths in Mexico alone. Uh, from this cartel violence, there were 446 policemen killed during, uh, last year as well. Uh, from this cartel violence, I often wonder what will it take?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So, I mean, development is, is really key. We have to change the approach to this population now, uh, marginalized and entering into the criminal, uh, uh, the illicit activity. Now, what we say also as commissioned in one of our reports is how important it is to make a difference between the people who are really at the bottom of the pyramid, who are, uh, just entering into these activities for a necessity and the real log that needs that organizer of the criminal organization. They lead the buses and criminalizing.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
The people at the bottom is just entering into a vicious circle without having any efficacy safety on the reality of the existing of, uh, of criminal organization and well, a concentration on the top is a concentration of, uh, the money. There is a concentration of co fighting. The corruption is an international effort to fight against money laundering is an effort in the country to fight against the entering the money of the drug in the legal sector. Let's say for instance, uh, the, the building, the housing, uh, the housing system and so on. So, I mean, it's, it's really difficult. I feel very humble when I speak about Latin America or Africa or Asia, because, uh, well, I was the president and I was in charge for public health and for the implementation of the narcotic law in Switzerland, but it was easy. It was not, it was not understood immediately, but, uh, it is now well, uh, well, hooted in the public opinion. And it was so easy that, that I have some difficulties to give advice to people who are responsible to, uh, who are in such a more difficult situation because also Switzerland had the means. We had the scientific, uh, team, we had the money, we had, uh, people at the forefront working in the streets. We had all we needed, I would say, too, we had all the possibilities, uh, to act. I wouldn't say that this is always the case everywhere right

DEAN BECKER
Now, speaking of which, uh, your time, uh, as president was back in around the year 1999, that was when Switzerland was beginning to adopt the, uh, the heroin injection program. If I am correct. Uh, I, a couple of years back, I was invited to speak to the European monitoring center on drugs and drug abuse. And then I went on to burn and I, there, I met Dr. Kristoff Burkey, who was one of the pioneers in, in setting up this, this program. And as I understand it, you guys are now over 20 million injections in these facilities with zero overdose deaths, which compares so well. So favorably and the United States last year, it was 83,335 overdose deaths. Let's talk about that comparison, please.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Yes, with pleasure. I mean, uh, the first, uh, the first experiment with, uh, safe consumption consumption rooms was made very early in 86 in a vain, quiet city, quite conservative city, the city, the capital of Switzerland Burnham. And this was really the beginning and it expanded, uh, to, through the whole, uh, country during the last 30 years or 40 years now. So we have a huge experience with, uh, with this service. And, uh, it is clear that, uh, it saved life. It helped to, to strengthen, uh, to build, uh, con uh, confidence relationship between the people who were there, uh, medical, social professionals. And so, so that, uh, if somebody is ready for instance, to a change in his life, uh, okay. I mean, he will find, or she will find exactly the person that can help. And we accept absolutely also that, uh, drug consumption is not always problematic, that people can live very well, even with an addiction and that if they cannot, uh, are not ready or not willing to abandon this consumption, uh, in my view, they have a right really to make it in a safe, uh, in a safe way.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
I mean, the people who were directly, uh, the, the, the main actor in this, their families, uh, and the public, uh, some association and the public, uh, the public opinion. So we, this, this is in, I would say is no longer considered as something, uh, [inaudible] very innovative. It is, it is accepted. It is also accepted by the neighborhoods because they saw, uh, also that, uh, it was, uh, for them better to have such a place than to have people lying around shooting themselves and, uh, and, uh, underground, uh, in playgrounds. And so on. Uh, for instance, one of the services, the users of the, of the safe consumption home are doing is to be sure that there are no needles around in the, in the neighborhood. And the contact with the neighborhood is also very, very important. But as I say, we have the largest experience in the world of this kind of, uh, of institution. And, uh, uh, we can only say it is positive for everybody. It is positive for the people who use drugs. It reduces the risk of transmission of, uh, blood drain, uh, illnesses. And it saves people from overdoses.

DEAN BECKER
I'm not sure how that's progressing, but the fact that they're attempting, it says a heck of a lot. If you ask me, and in, in, uh, uh, Canada, the police chiefs are now behind the safe injection facilities. They actually want them in their neighborhoods. And yet here in the United States with state and local authorities and judges and preachers, all trying to block this idea to prevent this from happening in America, it's a good idea. Is it not president Dreyfus?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Well, you know, uh, during the whole period, I was in charge in, in Switzerland, and I could progressively gain the support also of the voters of the citizen, of the population. I still had to go every year to Vietnam, to the commission on narcotics to explain what we were doing. And, uh, we were not, I mean, some countries, uh, were not, uh, convinced that we were still, uh, compliant, complying with the conventions now, uh, it is true that, uh, consumption rooms were long considered as not being in line with the convention, but this has changed. It is now recognized that it is a measure that can save life and that it is to be considered as a, what we call a harm reduction measure. Uh, but it was a long fight. I had to discuss several times also with that. I MCB the control board and not, uh, before the members of the CMD to explain that.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
It was no longer being asked by the police. It was really the possibility to take a heroin, like a diabetic person can take, uh, insulin and has to take insulin. So this, uh, at the beginning was also considered as something quite, uh, uh, well, a big step, but it was also accepted by the NCB, by the CND, by the who, uh, as a measure that is not different than other substitution therapies like metagon. And so that it can be, uh, why not a lifelong, uh, treatment, uh, in a atmosphere where this is recognized as a necessity and the people, uh, receive also the, I would say the social support, they probably need at the beginning of this, uh, of this, uh, way. And, uh, this was also monitored. We published all the results. We made a great debate. We had to vote on it to put it in the law.

DEAN BECKER
Earlier this week, the district attorney Kim all came out with another half dozen indictments of drug cops who killed a couple wounded, each other shooting through the walls. It's taken two years, there's still no ballistic evidence or whatever, but this follows on the heels of a crime lab that was scandalous. That was convicting people without even analyzing the, uh, uh, the drugs. Um, the, the, this is just not new or unique corruption and the money laundering, the, the, the, the, the deaths in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, all of this happenstance that doesn't need to happen anymore. And, and I guess from my perspective, it seems like a us politician could get elected by saying, I want to stop funding the cartels. I want to basically eliminate overdose deaths. And yet nobody steps forward your, your thought, how do we massage or maneuver these us politicians to embrace this possibility?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Yes, let me first perhaps speak about another commission. I was sister, if I can say so, which is the West African commission on drugs, they made an excellent report. They drafted also a model law for the whole region changing, uh, decriminalizing the consumption on the, on the, on drugs. But what I want to, to say to, to, to stay with your question is that, uh, in the first report, they said, there is no electoral campaign on all sides without the money of, of, of drug count. And there is no new buildings, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, rich places of the cities who are not financed by the drug, uh, and bland drugs like this, I mean, uh, entering into, into, uh, the, the legal, uh, housing market. So yes, corruption is really a key problem. And as you know, I mean, the worldwide, uh, drug markets, uh, is estimated between, uh, 350 and, uh, and 600 billions of, uh, of dollar.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
We speak generally from 500 to have a simple, a simple figure because it's, uh, it's underground. So we don't know exactly the only way is really to take as much as possible out of the criminal hands. What does that mean? That means regulation. That means that this market should be regulated by the state and not left in the hands of the cartel. So we, from the global commission on drug policy, uh, one of our five proposal is clearly to go step-by-step cautiously, but to go into the regulation of all drugs, it is important that, uh, such, uh, uh, that substances, that there are certain risks. And for some, it's a high risk for others, it's not, uh, such a, a great risk. I mean, cannabis, it is not worse than alcohol or, or tobacco, uh, but it can get worse if it is in criminal hands.

DEAN BECKER
And one last one I'd like to share with you, president Dreyfus is you mentioned the, was it three 50 to maybe $600 billion a year being earned by these cartels and gangs, and was never really presented much as the fact that over the decades, that becomes trillions of dollars that we have given to these criminals over the lifetime of this drug war, and no wonder they are able to move into human trafficking, as you say, and other means of crime and corruption, uh, w we're just feeding them, uh, in this this way, right?

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
The state has no, right. I would say to interfere in a free decision of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, somebody, uh, but, uh, and to find, uh, kind of, uh, proper for Nate and, uh, yeah, I mean, what the, what is now the destiny of the people at the bottom, the dealers industry, uh, the farmers in the mountains and so on is absolutely disproportionate disproportionate in most countries. I mean, in Europe, we found, I would say, uh, uh, a way to be more purpose Jeanette, but, uh, we should really decriminalize. Uh, we should also find, uh, find ways I would say to show other possibilities of a living to these people and to, to cut the, I need, if I can say so to cut the summit from the bottom, it has, it makes no sense to hire us people let's say young dealers in the street, if they have no other possibilities of living, and to know that they will be replaced the day after by somebody else or that, uh, coming out of the jail would be perhaps, uh, an opportunity for a little promotion in this, uh, in this, uh Yarki.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
So we have really, to, to find a ways to, yes, to break the business model, I would say of the organized crime, and this is attacking the summit, being a yes, offering to the basis, other opportunities and not pushing them in despair and marginalization, and, uh, building down the pure possibility, the, the, the poor possibilities they had at the beginning. They come in at eight in the consumption. I think this is a model we are promoting, and it, uh, we think it works. It will not be perfect. Not at all. It will not, uh, eliminate, uh, criminal organization, but it will be more human. It will be based on human rights. It will, it will be better on, uh, on the issue of public health. And, uh, it gives the opportunity to, um, to integrate people in society who now are just at the, at the margin regulation should also, uh, look at this.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
I mean, uh, we, uh, uh, from the commission, we are happy to see that at least two States in the United States who regulated the cannabis market, decided that former dealers should be, uh, receive an ethnicity and should be also those who can receive the permit in the legal cannabis market. This is, is very clever. It's very smart. Uh, it follows different purposes. The purpose of having, uh, a good market well regulated with a good quality of the product and so on. And it gives a chance for the people to enter into the legal, uh, and into the society.

DEAN BECKER
Well, there you have it friends, uh, we've been privileged to be speaking with, uh, president Ruth Dreifuss, former president of Switzerland. Um, one of the pioneers in the global commission on drugs policy, and one of my heroes for being so brave, courageous, and stepping forward to help end this madness. Thank you, president. Right.

PRESIDENT RUTH DREIFUSS
Thank you. You are a hero, you know,

DEAN BECKER
Thank you for that.