UNEDIITED TRANSCRIPT WITH Judge James P Gray and Washington State Rep Roger Goodman

Reverend Becker: (00:00)
Forget it. Yeah. I don't know. I, I, I, I don't know. It's not exactly a waking nightmare, but, it seems close.

Rep Roger Goodman: (00:12)
Oh, no, this is bad. This is bad. This is like really bad. What's going on right now?

Reverend Becker: (00:17)
Yeah. I want to talk about, start with what happened last night, I guess. Yeah. Uh, um, and, uh,

Rep Roger Goodman: (00:24)
By the, by the way, I was just in Texas, uh, last week. I was in San Antonio.

Reverend Becker: (00:28)
That's right. You, you were at, uh, you told me, uh, uh, during our last discussion, some, uh, gathering and, uh, that we were gonna maybe bring that into the discussion. Yeah,

Rep Roger Goodman: (00:37)
We could, we could, yeah.

Reverend Becker: (00:39)
Okay. All right. And the judge will hopefully be here soon.

Rep Roger Goodman: (00:44)
Okay. You said, oh, Beto, iss not gonna join us.

Reverend Becker: (00:47)
No, I, I, again, Beto, I don't know. It's, it's me. I, I, I, I'm, I'm that guy. You know, I,

Rep Roger Goodman: (00:57)
Right. Oh, I know. I remember . I used to be the same when I was all dressed up from the Bar Association, you know, this professional looking guy talking about ending the war on drugs. Oh my God. Oh, yeah. It's that guy

Reverend Becker: (01:08)
. Okay. So you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. But,

Rep Roger Goodman: (01:12)
But still let me, still let me in the room, you know? Yeah.

Reverend Becker: (01:15)
Well, it is just so, I don't know, I think the majority of politicians, and people all know the drug wars a failure, and they just dare not speak of it. I, I think that's the, the thing. Oh, here's the, well,

Rep Roger Goodman: (01:34)
It was, it was popular to talk about the failure of the drug war. Um, but that was during a period when we were talking about racial injustice and, you know, making progress in our society. And that's all. We're reacting against that now. It happens over and over again. You know, we went through the, Hey, judge.

Reverend Becker: (01:57)
Hello.

Judge James Gray: (01:58)
Good, good afternoon. Good evening.

Reverend Becker: (02:00)
How are you, sir?

Judge James Gray: (02:01)
Mr. Goodman? How are you doing?

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:03)
Well, I, I, we haven't met, but we've been working on the same stuff for 25 years, so, uh,

Judge James Gray: (02:08)
You started when you were 12 years old, just like I did

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:11)
. That's right. Yes. I had a youthful appearance. Yeah. . But I think I, I think, uh, I know about you and you know about me, and here we are finally together. So,

Judge James Gray: (02:19)
Well, Dean is the, uh, the catalyst.

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:22)
That's right. Yeah.

Judge James Gray: (02:23)
I try. Dean's a catalyst on a lot of things, and some of them are good

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:27)
.

Reverend Becker: (02:29)
Yeah. Well, alright. Um, well tell you what, um,

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:35)
I, I'm Dean. Is this, I'm sorry, is this video or is this audio?

Reverend Becker: (02:39)
No, it's just gonna be audio to start with. I might clip out some video, uh, just to cross pollinate to bring folks back to this, uh, gathering. But, uh, are you guys ready?

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:51)
And you, uh, sound is okay.

Reverend Becker: (02:54)
Uh, judge, what did you say? Okay.

Rep Roger Goodman: (02:57)
The sound is okay.

Judge James Gray: (02:57)
I can, I can, I can hear it. I can hear him fine. Can you hear me?

Rep Roger Goodman: (03:01)
Yes, sir. Yeah, I can hear you. I just wanna make sure that you can hear me, so, yeah. Okay.

Reverend Becker: (03:05)
Okay. It's all good. Alright, good, gentlemen. Um, what we're gonna begin, um, well, today, folks, I want to thank you for being with us for this special edition of Cultural Baggage. We have two guests with us today. Two, uh, long-term friends of this, uh, network, if you will. I'm gonna introduce them one at a time, just kind of say hello, and then we'll get down to business. Um, first one to show up was, uh, Washington State Representative, uh, Roger Goodman. Uh, he is, uh, head of the, I think he's the chair of the judicial committee there in Washington State. Is that right, Roger?

Rep Roger Goodman: (03:43)
Oh, yeah. It used to be called Public Safety Committee. It's now called the Community Safety Committee with jurisdiction over our criminal system.

Reverend Becker: (03:49)
Well, thank you, sir. And then secondly, I wanna welcome, uh, a long-term friend, the guy who inspired me to do this work, whose, uh, writings, uh, continue to inspire me. Uh, he was a superior court judge out there in the state of California, and I wanna welcome our good friend, judge James P. Gray. How you doing, judge? Well,

Judge James Gray: (04:08)
Dean, I'm just fine, thank you. And, and you're blaming me for all of these, this problems you've gotten into since then.

Reverend Becker: (04:14)
Yes, sir. I certainly am

Judge James Gray: (04:16)
Probably so. Thank you. Okay. You're a good man.

Reverend Becker: (04:19)
I , I, I want to, I guess I'm gonna begin with what happened just last night. This is being prerecorded and it was, uh, early this morning. I think it, it was that, uh, the US House of Representatives voted in their beautiful bill. And I, I'm gonna just, um, ask you guys to just step in here. Who wants to go first? What happened last night?

Rep Roger Goodman: (04:44)
Well, I can say as a legislator, uh, that, um, I guess they were trying to legislate in the dark. We do that too sometimes. We'll wait till two, three in the morning. Uh, so nobody's watching, but we were watching. Uh, and, uh, I, I can say just generally as a legislator, where our state and every state depends on federal funds for the purpose of matching those funds for programs, uh, services and programs, mostly healthcare, that, uh, you know, people who otherwise can't afford it, uh, a lot of people are gonna die. Uh, a lot of people can get sick and die. And, um, there's a cynical aspect to this because those folks are generally poor and they don't vote. So there won't necessarily be a electoral consequence to this. Uh, I just think it's cruel. And I think the, the government does have a, should have a focus on helping the less fortunate and the most vulnerable, and they just cut literally a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. And so, uh, it is distressing. Um, um, but of course, we have to wait and see what happens in the Senate. Right? It's not done yet.

Reverend Becker: (05:49)
Right. And thank you for that, Roger. Uh, and, uh, judge, uh, gray, uh, he mentioned the word, I think that's been bounced around a lot. That cruelty is the point. Your, your response there, judge Gray,

Judge James Gray: (06:03)
You know, it's politics in a lot of ways. Dean, I believe one of my true heroes is Milton Friedman, and he had what he called medical savings accounts. I would much prefer to bring, get the government out of healthcare and have competition in healthcare, like in schools, like in so many other things. So if you are below the poverty line or you're, you're wherever, you would have a medical savings account that is money that the state government would give to you each year, whatever. And you could then use that on the private market. I don't want anybody in our country, it's just not who we are to starve to have un un no access to, to, uh, healthcare. And that certainly includes people in our prisons, which is a different issue. But, uh, you know, we need to get the government out of these things like they have it in Canada. Uh, so you get on the waiting list and, and you have cancer, but you can't see any, a doctor for a year and a half or something. No. Bring the private sector, bring competition back into it, but give people the wherewithal to be able to spend money and take care of themselves.

Reverend Becker: (07:10)
Now, I, you know, I never went to, didn't finish college, certainly don't have a law degree, but I hear these terms being, and I don't know if bandied about is the right phrase, but, um, we, we have, um, secretary Noam, uh, heads up, uh, uh, home, uh, um, I, I can't even think of the last word, but she's, she's the head of the home security for the

Rep Roger Goodman: (07:35)
Home. Uh, Homeland Security. Homeland Security, yeah. Yes,

Reverend Becker: (07:37)
Sir. And, and, um, she was asked what was the meaning of the word, um, habeas corpus. And she said it was a means whereby the President can kick people out of the country. And I just don't think that's right. Judge, you wanna start first on this one?

Judge James Gray: (07:56)
Please? Yes. I have a one word answer for that answer, and that is hogwash. No, the corp habeas corpus means that you can't be brought into the, to the government. You can't be detained without probable cause. And the probable cause should be proved. So you have to have a hearing if anybody is going to be deported from our country, from my standpoint, if they are here, they have to have some form of a hearing, some form of a neutral hearing, first to see that, hey, you really are the person that, that you're saying, or did you have a green card or whatever else to get into the, to the, to the issues and, and to export people like that one man they sent down to Salvador Prison. It's just not who we are, Dean. It's simply flat out is not who we are.

Rep Roger Goodman: (08:40)
Yeah. I mean, as a, as as lawyers, both Judge Gray and I are, and I, I'll speak for him because I think, uh, he agrees, uh, uh, really, um, I don't know what the word is, outraged or, uh, I, I guess this is how they want us to feel. Uh, they want to disrupt, they want chaos. It's not really about the policy, but the undermine the, not just the flouting, but the undermining of the rule of law. You know, we talk about freedom. America's all about freedom. Well, yeah, that's true. And, but freedom depends on democracy. And then democracy depends on the rule of law. The rule of law is at the base of it all. And for the executive branch, just to, uh, deny, uh, uh, refuse to obey orders, uh, you know, that, that to me is the greatest concern, is, uh, uh, trying to put executive orders to, uh, shut down the practice of loss or the law firms, uh, not abiding by judicial orders. This is not America. Uh, and I, I hope people wake up to this.

Judge James Gray: (09:43)
Well, our founders put in brilliantly the separation of powers. We have three different separate branches of government, and each has some powers delegated to it by the Constitution. And so you're not gonna have a president legislating. Well, we do. In fact, the executive department now has all of these bureaus that, that legislate all over the place. And we, we've gotta get away from that. We, we have problems. I, I feel that we need to be a nation of laws, like the representative says. And we have to be transparent. Uh, we, I fault the media in many ways, because they don't shine a light on this. You can agree with, with Musk or not. But at least he is pointing to overspending in the government that is dangerous. It's really politically practical, because by the time that the, the Bud Sprouts, and we were over in, in, um, bankruptcy, in effect, these people who were elected will be long gone.

Judge James Gray: (10:45)
So I will vote now to, to have, yes, lots and lots of governments spent on the voters, uh, you know, these different political groups. No, we need to get things under control. We need to talk with each other, which we're so polarized in our country today. And we can talk about that if you want to. I, I have a theory as to how we've become so polarized. But, but it's a terrible thing. You go back to Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill, who were about as radically different in their political philosophies as you could be, but they could share a glass of bourbon together in the evening, talk and, and converse with each other to the degree that, as I understand it, tip O'Neill had tears in his eyes when Ronald Reagan was shot. I mean, they had a personal involvement. But today, if I disagree with you, not only are you wrong, you're evil.

Judge James Gray: (11:33)
Right? And if I even converse with you, if I even talk with you, I'm betraying my political element, whatever, we've got to get away from that because, and that's a legal phrase. It's our government. And if it's not working, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Now, that's a pretty daunting thing to say. And we, in the legal profession, I think, have a, a bigger responsibility. And you certainly in your, in your line of work, have a bigger responsibility. But it's up to all of us to sound the alarm, to not allow these things to happen, to show your outrage, and not only in in media, but also in your voting.

Reverend Becker: (12:09)
Thank you. Uh, once again, friends, we're speaking with, uh, Roger Gate, Roger Gray, a rep. Dang it. Roger Goodman, a a representative out of, uh, the state of Washington. And we're, uh, speaking with, uh, judge James P. Gray, good friend, the great author, great man. Uh, I'm, I'm hearing these things that just disgust me, that make me wonder what nation I am in. And it, it has to deal with, uh, they're trying to, um, tear out the black, uh, involvement in our nation, that the Smithsonian Black Museum, they're taking out all of the history. They're, they're, they, they're going after the DEI, which is, to me, that means racism. That they're, they're going after diversity, equity, and, and inclusion, and trying to remove pictures from history that involve involvement, that show the involvement of, uh, the black community or maybe the Spanish community. Uh, to me, this just seems like open blatant racism. You, you guys response to that, please?

Judge James Gray: (13:15)
No. Um, we have an obligation to tell the truth about who we are, what our history is. Uh, certainly the Dred Scott Case, uh, certainly slavery, uh, was a, was a terrible thing that we have to acknowledge it. Uh, putting the Japanese in internment camps during the second World War was just not who we are. But on the other hand, we need to educate our people. Instead of giving people benefits because of some race, we need to get back to accountability. In fact, when I was interviewed for the US Attorney's Office, I was an assistant US attorney, a federal prosecutor in Los Angeles, and, uh, they drummed it into me. I don't think it was hard to do that, Jim, in this office, as a prosecutor, you will do the right thing for the right reason. Every time, if you make a mistake, we've got your back.

Judge James Gray: (14:04)
But if you do things for political reasons, for personal reasons, you're gonna be accountable. That's not the way it is in our world today. That you do things for political reasons, for private reasons, and nobody will stand up to you. We have to do that, Dean. We have to look at what's going on, regardless of whether we agree with somebody on something else. But if you disagree with them on this, for example, I have a good friend who's a former chief Assistant Chief of Police of Los Angeles Police Department. So he is pretty, pretty, pretty upper echelon fellow who is talking about, wait a minute, they're now using the military to supposedly have a parade to celebrate the 250th year of the military. But it's actually turning into Donald Trump's birthday parade. And he is recommending that the soldiers not participate if they have to violate, not, not follow the, the orders. That's not a legal order to have you be an a pawn in a political march. Now, I'm not sure of all of this stuff, but, but we cannot have individuals placing their politics and personal gain at the public expense. And we're, we've just gotta sound the alarm, just like you are in your beck, Becker's buds, by the way.

Rep Roger Goodman: (15:22)
. Yeah. It's, it's more than just inappropriate for, uh, a person, uh, wielding probably more power than anyone on the planet to take away the white rights of others, uh, or to just sort of have fun with chaos and disruption and keep people off balance and wonder what's coming next. It's not about the policy, it's about pay attention to me. And, and that, that to me is very unethical to weaponization of the Department of Justice, the weaponization of the US military. Um, when you talk about race, dean, I think about the war on drugs. Uh, the war on drugs, uh, didn't have to do with the drugs. Uh, it, it had to do with social control. It's more than a hundred years old, right? Tell the story about the Chinese and opium and the cocaine craze negro more than a century ago, and Mexicans and marijuana and so forth.

Rep Roger Goodman: (16:11)
Uh, that's kind of bubbling up. Again. We have this sort of race-based, uh, impression. Uh, I can't believe the war on drugs. They're trying to crank that up. Again. The public knows better. Uh, I was elected back in 2006 to end the war on drugs. No one thought I could get elected, but the people are ahead of the politicians they knew, even back then. Um, and I, I, I can't imagine that a politician could get elected today, uh, arguing to crank up the war on drugs again. But in some places, it seems like that's tenable. And I not where I am, we're out. We're out here in the northwest corner of the, we're probably the most liberal place in, in America right now. But, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm a little bit concerned that the war on drugs is becoming somewhat favored again. And that I, I can't believe we're gonna be moving backwards.

Judge James Gray: (16:54)
Well, Jane, uh, if I could put in a plug, I, I've written as maybe, you know, a musical, it's called Convention, the Birth of America and celebrates. It's about the 1787 Constitutional Convention. And, and we go through the history and we also hold people accountable that one of the songs is What About Me? Which basically you have the delegates all singing, uh, freedom's. What we cry for brotherhood is what we live, and they're puffing around. And then you have, well, a slave, well, what about me? You know, you build your fortune on my back. I have no rights. I can't even hold onto my wife and my children. What about me? Then you go to, uh, of course, a Native American, you who has said, well, you, we welcome you into our forests, and this the thanks that comes to these starvation, and we have to survive on just the crumbs.

Judge James Gray: (17:37)
And then you get a woman, well, I can't get an education. I can't vote. What about me? So we're honest about this, and in fact, if I could, if anyone is interested, go to judge jim gray.com, GRAY, and you can read about, uh, uh, and see that musical, a convention, the Birth of America, as well as Americans, all which is meant to help mentor our students. We've got to help mentor our students. But if you go back to all of these various other things, oh, your poor baby, uh, you know, oh, you, your grandparents, your, your, you're heritage, you were a slave. Therefore, you're a poor baby. It's self-defeating, Dean. It doesn't work that we go on. We get into school choice, which I think is hugely important in our world, uh, to allow the parents to choose where their government money is gonna be spent for the education of their children.

Judge James Gray: (18:26)
And, uh, instead of having the government to, in fact, public education is the only area in our economy I'm aware of, where the provider dictates what the purchaser will buy. And so you're gonna buy whatever it is that I give you. And, uh, it isn't working. It's the biggest failure in our country today. We have so many public schools failing our children, and they'll probably never be able to catch up. My wife and I have written a book on that called 2 20 30 Kids, and it's a novel about school choice, but I'm proud of that. We need to spread these issues and discuss them openly. I, I could be wrong. I am ask my wife. I'm wrong a lot. But, but, you know, we ought to be able to discuss these various things. By the way, I'm on a roll here. Uh, would you like to have a lesson in life, Dean? Uh, I know it's never too late. Never too early. Have you heard, by the way, that no matter how hard you push the envelope, it's still stationary,

Reverend Becker: (19:19)
. Oh, God, thank you.

Rep Roger Goodman: (19:23)
Oh my

Reverend Becker: (19:23)
Goodness. , I, another item that sticks in my craw best way to put it, uh, it was, uh, just over four years ago, I watched all day on January 6th, the attack on the US Capitol, the attack on our democracy, the brutality, the harm and injury that was being inflicted on our good, brave, uh, cops there trying to protect the Senate and the House. And, and then Trump gets reinstalled, and he freed all of these people, no matter how brutal, no matter how malicious they were on that day. Your, your response to that, let's start with you, uh, first this time. Roger Gray, that good.

Rep Roger Goodman: (20:14)
So, I mean, we can be outraged, uh, by that, uh, you know, the fact that Trump was inaugurated in the very same space under the rotunda, where the riot took place. The irony of that, and yeah, we can be enraged about, I'm, I'm more, uh, concerned again about the undermining of the rule of law, which is a, not ought to be a nonpartisan matter. Uh, there are a lot of aggrieved people in this country. People who never got a chance. People in rural areas in particular, who didn't benefit from the generational wealth brought, uh, brought on after the Second World War. Uh, and so, uh, the, the anger and the aggrieved population, uh, I can see why they'd get angry and, and, you know, hold a riot and maybe even be encouraged by the President. Uh, I think that's what we need to look at.

Rep Roger Goodman: (21:10)
Not be so upset about a particular event, but to look at the structure. Like why is there such inequity, uh, in particularly in areas that never got a chance. There, there was no rail line, there was no river. Uh, and there's, they're in small towns, and there's no economic opportunity. I think that's what we need to do, is to provide, uh, guidance of support for those bread and butter issues. We need to make sure that the economy works for everyone. And, and, and coming out of that sort of dysfunction has been this tribalism, this polarization, and then ending up in violence. So we have to look at the root problems rather than get so upset about particular events. That's just my perspective.

Judge James Gray: (21:49)
Well, I, I agree with that too, representative. But, um, it, the rule of law allows a president to have clemency powers to have pardon powers. Uh, and, uh, so if he's going to do that, which he did, I never would've done that as president. You know, if there's some people that were hitting police officers, you know, hurting police officers, you know, I don't care what their cause was, that cannot be tolerated. And, and we've got to have that rule of law, and people have to not only understand and believe, but it has to be true that the FBI is not politicized. That the Department of Justice is not politicized. And right now, I'm sorry to say that there's some reason to believe that they have been terribly harmful for the country, terribly harmful. And but you look at President Biden who pardoned his own son, you know, I mean, all this sort of stuff, it just, it stinks.

Judge James Gray: (22:45)
That's, that's a legal term also. But, uh, you know, the, the re the remedy for that is elections. You know, if, if you have somebody that's, that's going out and pardoning their own family, then vote for somebody else. I mean, 'cause the, you cannot have the House of Representatives standing over the President on something like that. Uh, you have to have a separation of powers. Uh, the same thing with regard to the, the Supreme Court or the, the justice system. You cannot have a judge being impeached because he found against what the executive, current executive office wants. You know, the, the appeal there, or the remedy there is to appeal it. Just like Chief Justice Roberts said, you cannot have the Congress or the President sitting in judgment over the court system. Uh, so if, and even I, I'll get into the fact that we have some justices seemingly accepting gifts from, from various people for travel or for whatever else, but you cannot have the house of, of representatives or the President overseeing that. That is something that the Chief Justice should put in stall, such that we have remedies, we have re requirements that you will not accept gifts from private individuals, but we need to get separation of powers. It's critically

Rep Roger Goodman: (24:00)
Important. I wanna get back to one thing Judge Grace said earlier, and that is, uh, uh, that when Tip O'Neill and, and Ronald Reagan could, you know, have a drink at the end of the day, even though they disagreed sharply on issues we have now, both political parties are dysfunctional and corrupt, and they will not communicate with one another. And you need that. I, I, I was, uh, privileged enough to have, uh, uh, lunch with, uh, Senator Ed Muskie. This was 30, 30 years ago. Oh, me. And this was in the Senate Dining Room. I used to work on Capitol Hill for a long time. And, uh, I said, what's all this partisanship? People always disagreeing, conservative and liberal and Republican. He, and he pulled out of his, out of his breast pocket Uhto a, uh, pocket watch, which was on a chain. He said, you see this watch, it doesn't run unless it's wound.

Rep Roger Goodman: (24:45)
You need that tension. Hmm. So that's the basis of it. But you also need respect for one another. And you need to be collegial, and you need to understand, I believe it was James Madison said, we have to disagree, but in an agreeable manner. And so I can say that in my state, in Washington state, up in the northwest corner here, we're about, let's say 60 40, maybe 55, 45, depending, you know, so the, it is a blue state, and we have the governor's office, and we've got the house, we've got the Senate, but we work well with our Republican colleagues. We disagree, and they vote no and so forth. But we have a, a, you know, positive social relations with I I, I go out and have whiskey and cigars with my Republican friends every week, and then the next day we're back in the chamber and I go over, you know, cross the aisle, sit down with 'em, Hey, that was fun last night.

Rep Roger Goodman: (25:35)
You know, we talk about our kids, we talk about sports, whatever. But that sort of lubricates the lawmaking process, even though we disagree. There's that respect, there's that dignity. And that's been lost on the federal level. Uh, and I have to say that people are turning to state governments more for solutions, uh, because of that tribalism and that polarization, which is really all about power. Sort of like winner take all. That's not the way it should be. It should be collaboration compromise. And everybody's a little bit unhappy at the end of the day. Right? Uh, and so I'm proud to say that in our state, and in most states, actually, these legislatures work much better than, uh, on the federal level.

Judge James Gray: (26:13)
Well, good for you. 'cause we, you're absolutely right. And that is what we need. And, okay, I'm gonna betray a secret here that I'm sure you've never thought of before, but life is complicated. I, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you know, you get back to how we got so polarized. And my view is you go back to when we all of a sudden had like 300 cable TV stations on now available. And I thought to myself, wow, that's gonna be wonderful. We're all gonna get a variety of different aspects and news and, and thoughts. And boy, was I wrong, because now what happens is, you have one cable TV or one TV network that will find out what your biases and cater directly to your biases. And again, then that means that if you disagree with me, I'm, I'm, I'm evil. We've got to realize that.

Judge James Gray: (26:57)
And sometime try this, try your listeners, Dean, where someday they'll have some big event somewhere, and you listen to M-S-N-B-C and to NBC News and to Fox News and CBS, and they'll get the names right. And everything else is slanted. It just depends which one you choose. And I read things in the paper, uh, I read the Orange County Register, which is here in California, and it's pretty conservative libertarian, which so am I. But if you see that they have an article from the Associated Press, it's gonna be slanted toward the liberal aspect. And it's just shame on us. There's no Walter Cronkite anymore that I can think of in our nation. I I

Rep Roger Goodman: (27:35)
Was just gonna say, do you remember, remember Walter

Judge James Gray: (27:37)
Cronkite most trust man in America? Yes. Yeah. My, let me brag to you for a minute, because I wrote a book on the drug war called Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed A Judicial Indictment of the War on Drugs. I'm proud to say. And it was in, it was endorsed by Milton Friedman, George Schultz, the Secretary of State under under Ronald Reagan, Walter Cronkite, Arianna Huffington, governor Gary Johnson from New Mexico, and Kurt Schmo, who was then the mayor of Baltimore. Wonderful man. And, you know, if I could get those six people to agree on anything, I thought that was pretty good. There's one more thing I want to add here. And, and I think Mr. Goodman, you're gonna agree with this, that there've been almost zero, very few deaths from fentanyl overdoses in our country. Very few. It's all deaths from fentanyl poisoning. Correct. 'cause they don't know it's there.

Judge James Gray: (28:23)
Right. And if they take the same pill today, and it looks the same that as I did yesterday, but unbeknownst to me, it's four times stronger. I take it and I die. That's caused by drug prohibition. Exactly. And you got into the, the drug cartels down in Mexico who frequently have more money and more guns than the government does. And guess where the government, guess where the, the money comes from, it comes from the United States. How does that make you feel? And so we faced this with alcohol prohibition where we had people drinking this, they called it white lightning or whatever, and they'd die. They'd go blind or something from the impurities and the alcohol. That problem went away almost overnight when we repealed alcohol prohibition. Yeah. And the same thing pretty much will happen when we repeal drug prohibition here. And the most successful approach to any of these, mind altering, sometimes addicting substances in the last number of decades has been the way we treated cigarettes. You know, it's still regulated and controlled. You still have controls of somebody that's under 18, and you have quality control, but you also have honest information out in the workplace, out in the marketplace. And so people are just not gonna smoke as much anymore because hey, what do, what do I want to put that into my body for? And that's what we need to do with regard to these other various mind altering, sometimes addicting substances. Yeah. I,

Rep Roger Goodman: (29:38)
That's where I, a, it's a, it's a conservative response to the war on drugs. We need to be regulating and controlling the substance, uh, regulating the market, uh, and, and giving people information. I mean, it, it, I, I'm, I'm baffled why true conservatives don't support this rational approach. The, the ideology kind of, kind of gets into it. It's, it's all about the drugs. It's not about the drugs, it's about the drug markets. We need to be contr market.

Judge James Gray: (30:06)
The prison guard guards Union is really winning here. But, uh, you know, you, you get into this situation where, you know, you, you, you look at people and, and figure out where they are and, and then try to help people. So if I'm gonna take some of these drugs, and I don't, I don't harm anybody else. All I'm doing is harming myself, that should not be a crime. Exactly. Bring me closer to the medical professionals that can help me. But if I burglarize your house to get money for my drugs, or I drive under the influence, now I'm putting your safety, your fu at risk. That's a crime's. Right. And that's where we need to go.

Rep Roger Goodman: (30:40)
Exactly. Yep.

Reverend Becker: (30:42)
Uh, I gotta interrupt you guys. Thank you for all of this great discussion. We're about to run out time. We've been speaking with, uh, uh, judge James P. Gray and, uh, from the State of Washington representative Roger Goodman. Uh, I, I want to wrap it up with just a quick thought if I can, here, maybe get a brief response from you guys. But it, it, it has been, uh, you know, I don't care which type of school, what type of education people are getting. They have been failing to, uh, prime these kids with the constitution, with our Bill of rights, with the, uh, ability to understand that what's happening at the, in Washington DC right now is unconstitutional, is irregular, is not the way it has been done in this country for 200 years. And that, and that we are off track. Um, I, I wanted to, um, uh, get y'all's thoughts on that. Oh, and I, I wanna say this. You mentioned, um, you know, uh, Walter Cronkite and, and some other, uh, reporters, they, they're wanting to close the NPR and, uh, um, um, uh, I can't think of the other,

Judge James Gray: (31:48)
The P-B-S-P-B-S.

Rep Roger Goodman: (31:50)
Thank you. PBS. Yeah.

Reverend Becker: (31:51)
And, and, and, uh, they're, they're, they're nipping at the heels of my network, uh, the Pacifica network trying to confine us. You guys have maybe said some things too much that, that, that they are going after us for promoting Got you

Rep Roger Goodman: (32:06)
In trouble, 

Reverend Becker: (32:07)
For promoting. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna air this program, but the thing I'm saying is they want to constrain our rights. They're crimping, uh, uh, US down. Uh, quick response from both of you. Please.

Rep Roger Goodman: (32:19)
Well, think, think, think about this. So Judge Gray and I, we actually are in perfect alignment when it comes to these libertarian principles as it relates to the war on drugs and many other issues. But we disagree. He and I disagree on a lot of things. And this program is bringing us together. And, and that dialectic conversation between us is yielding something better. Uh, that's what America ought to be. Uh, and so I'm, maybe we're being watched, maybe we're gonna try to be censored, but I think these types of conversations are very important for the people to hear.

Judge James Gray: (32:48)
Well, the answer for people having disputes is more conversation, just more. And, and if I'm wrong, tell me some. Sometimes I, I, I put out something called two Paragraphs for Liberty, and it goes out once a week just to promote discussion. And, you know, I've done it for 400 weeks now or something, just to try to have people feedback and just discuss. By the way, let me leave you with one question I use in my mediations with some regularity. What do you call a cow dean that's just given birth? And I, one time had an, an attorney off the top of his head, say, utterly exhausted, which I really thought was pretty good. . And another attorney off the top of her head said, smoother, which I also thought was pretty good. , I like mine better. What do you call a cow that's just given birth? And the answer is decaffeinated. I'll leave you with that.

Rep Roger Goodman: (33:42)
Oh, okay. I got it. Oh,

Judge James Gray: (33:43)
I see you. Good, man. Your, your eyes

Rep Roger Goodman: (33:44)
Go up. See, I got it. Took me forever. Yeah. All right. Well, I like that. I like that these are like dad jokes.

Judge James Gray: (33:50)
Do you know the difference between a dad joke and a bad joke? Well, one is a parent

Rep Roger Goodman: (33:57)
.

Judge James Gray: (33:59)
I'm an acquired taste. Ask my wife.

Rep Roger Goodman: (34:01)
Goodness, 

Judge James Gray: (34:02)
Dean, it's good to be, good to be with you. Always thank you for what you're doing, and Godspeed to you and representative. It's nice. It's nice to finally, uh, be able to, to talk with you directly. I've certainly read about you with good, good, good tidings. Thank you. Yeah.

Rep Roger Goodman: (34:16)
Let's, uh, let's end the war on drugs together.

Judge James Gray: (34:19)
Deal.

Rep Roger Goodman: (34:27)
Oh, Dean, you're muted. Oh, Dean, you're muted. So we didn't hear you.

Reverend Becker: (34:58)
Well, I, uh, I wanna thank you, um, gentlemen, both for, um, being with us here today. I want to thank you out there for listening. And I wanna remind you once again, that because of Prohibition, uh, you don't know what's in that bag. And I urge you to please be careful and always remember that, uh, euphoria is a blessing, not a crime. .

Rep Roger Goodman: (35:20)
Uh,

Reverend Becker: (35:21)
And, and, um, okay. Now the show is over, but I, I, I just, uh, what was I thinking? Why was I asking? Uh, oh, I know, uh, judge Gray, you were mentioning a former LA policeman. Uh, was that Stephen Downing, Steven Downing, or,

Judge James Gray: (35:39)
Yes. Yes. Steve Downing good friend, become a good friend, all because of the war on drugs. He's, he's a me, he's a member of Leap, uh, you know, law enforcement against Prohibition. Very good, man. Oh,

Reverend Becker: (35:50)
And he, he's been writing so much stuff these days, that's just, so

Judge James Gray: (35:54)
I've tried to get him to tone down his rhetoric, because he's turning people off by, by some of the, but his ideas are frequently, I, I, I agree with a lot of them and don't agree with some, but, hooray,

Reverend Becker: (36:06)
I'm radical. I agree with all of them, but, okay. Uh, anyway, gentlemen, thank you so much. And I, I hope to do this again. Maybe Steve doesn't use Zoom, which complicates things, or I'd have had him on here with you guys, or one of you guys. It's hard to do in a half hour, uh, show these days. But, uh, uh, no, I just, I, I'm thrilled that you guys are on this. There are a lot of people out there on the, uh, internet, internet channels, the, the Mice's brothers or whatever they are, and some others that are being bold and speaking loud and proud about our constitution, our rights, our, our country. And, uh, so little is on the networks. They they are, they're failing, as far as I'm concerned. They, they just don't have any balls.

Judge James Gray: (36:57)
Uh, I think our founding fathers would take, take up arms against what we're doing in so many ways right now.

Rep Roger Goodman: (37:02)
Yeah. I mean, the media, they're just trying to make money, right? Yeah. So what makes money is polarization. What makes money is get people mad. What makes money is blood. You know, it's not about the news. I remember Eric ide, oh, you know, he had his, he one of the commentaries, and I was a, you know, like a, I wasn't, I don't even think I was a teenager yet. And he said, the news is what's unusual. Mm-hmm . And so taking your kids to school, going shopping, sitting in traffic, going to the doctor's office, that's not news, but that's every day

Judge James Gray: (37:35)
An American Airlines plane landed safely in Los Angeles, right? Right. I mean, that's not news.

Rep Roger Goodman: (37:40)
And so we tend to take these unusual events and normalize them, uh, and then the media makes money off that, uh, because it's, uh, it attracts, you know, base instincts and so forth. So this kind of cerebral stuff we're talking about here is difficult. Uh, uh, it doesn't, doesn't make money, right. So, yeah.

Judge James Gray: (37:59)
Yeah. It's up to us.

Reverend Becker: (38:01)
Well, uh, I, I need to let you guys know this is going to be a pledge drive show. Uh, we, we are listener sponsored. We don't get money from government or anybody. We, we depend on our listeners, and I'm gonna have to trim this down and probably lose a little bit here and there.

Judge James Gray: (38:17)
But you're not gonna trim down my jokes, are you? Maybe, my goodness.

Reverend Becker: (38:22)
Maybe one. But

Judge James Gray: (38:24)
,

Reverend Becker: (38:25)
No, I, I, uh, again, I, I'm just glad we live in a country where we can still do this. I mean, my truck truly

Rep Roger Goodman: (38:35)
Hope so. Yeah. Okay, let's keep it going. Alright,

Judge James Gray: (38:38)
Well, Roger, are you ever, thanks, you ever in Southern California, in Orange County?

Rep Roger Goodman: (38:42)
Uh, so my son, uh, he was waitlisted at, uh, UCLA.

Judge James Gray: (38:47)
Oh me.

Rep Roger Goodman: (38:48)
Uh, wow. So, but he, but he got into the University of Wisconsin in a full scholarship, so I guess he's going there. Good stuff. But otherwise I would've been down in, uh, I I, I come to South, actually, I will look you up 'cause I, I Please

Judge James Gray: (39:00)
Do. Lemme lemme give you my cell phone number if you have a pen. 'cause I, we have a electric boat. We'd take you around the Balboa Bay.

Rep Roger Goodman: (39:07)
Oh, wow.

Judge James Gray: (39:09)
That's just a little extra bribery. Dean, same with you. If you're ever in southern California,

Reverend Becker: (39:13)
I've been, uh, I've been stuck in this house since COVID, basically. Oh, no.

Rep Roger Goodman: (39:18)
, my

Reverend Becker: (39:20)
Goodness. I, I, I mean, I go to the grocery store and restaurants and stuff, but, uh, yeah. Um, I haven't even been into my sister's house, you know what I'm saying? It just, everything that COVID.

Judge James Gray: (39:31)
Yeah. Well, that's true. And I, okay, so Roger, it's, go ahead. 7 1 4, 3 2 8 8, 8 2, 9, 7.

Rep Roger Goodman: (39:41)
One,

Judge James Gray: (39:41)
Seven. 1, 4, 3, 3, 2, 8. Yep. Eight, eight, two nine. Okay.

Rep Roger Goodman: (39:47)
Call me. I will, I'll be

Judge James Gray: (39:48)
Happy to, happy to host you. It'd be fun to shake your hand.

Rep Roger Goodman: (39:52)
Okay. Excellent.

Judge James Gray: (39:53)
Good.

Reverend Becker: (39:54)
There's, well, thank you. You two, you two together. That's good. Um,

Judge James Gray: (39:58)
I should say,

Reverend Becker: (39:59)
Yeah. And, and guys, we, we, I, I may wanna do this again soon because I, I, I think I mentioned on one of you yesterday that it's hard for me to get anybody. I can't get any Republican to come on this show. I can't get, as of now, I can't get the, the, the local mayor, police, chief sheriff, district attorney, none of them will come on this show. Even though they're Democrats and they know I'm right. Because they don't want to be associated with that legal guy who, you know, I could whip

Judge James Gray: (40:30)
Dean, Dean, Dean. Do not call it the legalization of drugs. It's not what I don't, I don't favor legalizing any of these drugs, which basically means you treat 'em like post hostess. You know, I want strictly regulated and controlled

Rep Roger Goodman: (40:42)
Regulation. Talk

Judge James Gray: (40:43)
About really makes a difference. These are strictly regulated control, like wine. And, and we had this proposition out here, 36 in California and said, you wanna legalize Maryland? No, no, I wouldn't do that. Would you like to treat it like wine? Sure. Right. And, and, and it's, it's accurate. So we're not gonna legalize anything. Yeah. Ban, ban that term.

Rep Roger Goodman: (41:03)
When we were doing that, our, uh, the Bar Association work, uh, gosh, 20 years ago, I can't believe it. Uh, we went, we, we had pretty intense debates about what words should we should use. And the word legalize is very politically charged. It sounds like hand drugs out in the street corner. Legalization can take many forms. And so, yes, we talked about control. We wanna control drugs. And the way you control drugs is by regulating them effectively. Certainly. And, and people, we wanted to use the word regulation regulation over and over again. Like talk to editorial boards, make sure that the headline said the word regulation rather than

Judge James Gray: (41:38)
Strictly regulated. It's even better regulat. And it's true. Yeah. Strictly regulated and controlled. Yeah. That's what, and people get that that's what we do with alcohol.

Rep Roger Goodman: (41:44)
Yeah. And we regulate dynamite. We regulate uranium, we regulate a lot of hazardous things. Certainly.

Judge James Gray: (41:50)
Certainly.

Reverend Becker: (41:52)
Yeah. Good advice. And, and I, I was just abbreviating there, I do talk about regulation and control a lot more. Yeah. But it's just that they see me as, oh, well, um, Beto O'Rourke, he often, uh, came on my show still, I think Will again, but he was, um, challenged, uh, in the Daily Beast one time about his association with me, the legalize guy. And, and, uh, I don't know if that hurt him much in, in his losing that election, but, uh, he probably still thinks about it. But anyway, gentlemen, I don't want to take up any more of your time. Um, this has been a wonderful show. I

Judge James Gray: (42:31)
Nice to be with you. Yeah,

Rep Roger Goodman: (42:33)
Sure. Yeah. It's good to, good to, let's do this again. And, and Dean, if you wanna have just me and I can tell you what I'm doing as chair of a committee to stop drug war stuff from happening. We got all these bills introduced to start punishing again for fentanyl or whatever it is. And then I get blasted in the media for not moving a bill forward. Why aren't we punishing these people? And so I, I do wanna talk about that and how that works in the legislature, because

Judge James Gray: (42:56)
Sure. We're gonna put our military in, in, in Mexico to war. That's called an act of war. That's right. Just nonsense. Just the answer is no. Yeah. Okay. Well, I I'll leave you then. Uh, I, I'll ask you, would you like to hear my all time favorite play on words?

Reverend Becker: (43:12)
Go ahead, please.

Judge James Gray: (43:13)
Yeah. I'm not, I I only have one response instead of two, but, uh, would I, I won't, I won't inflict it upon you if you want. Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, okay. So what do you, what do you call it when you mix an elephant and a rhinoceros? Obviously a very important question. What do you call it when you mix an elephant and a rhinoceros? And the answer is elephant. I know.

Reverend Becker: (43:35)
.

Judge James Gray: (43:37)
Bye.

Reverend Becker: (43:38)
Thank you, judge. Thanks

Judge James Gray: (43:40)
Dean. I'm sad leave on that joke, but it's probably not a joke.

Rep Roger Goodman: (43:43)
Take care. See you later, Dean. Thank you very much.

Reverend Becker: (43:45)
Thank you both so much. Okay. Bye. Alright, see, okay.