Organizations

01/19/22 Dr. Khalid Tinasti

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Khalid Tinasti
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

Dr. Khalid Tinasti, Executive Director of the Global Commission on Drug Policy joins DTN host Dean Becker for a second half hour to disect the logic of the drug war. Dr, Tinast also is featured in DTN's 90 minute video production: Claiming the Moral High Ground.

Audio file

01/19/22 Dr. Khalid Tinasti

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Khalid Tinasti
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

Dr. Khalid Tinasti, Executive Director of the Global Commission on Drug Policy joins DTN host Dean Becker for a second half hour to disect the logic of the drug war. Dr, Tinast also is featured in DTN's 90 minute video production: Claiming the Moral High Ground.

Audio file

12/08/21 James Gierach

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
James Gierach
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

James Gierach, former prosecutor, LEAP Speaker address DTN hosts call for a drug war tribunal for crimes against humanity + Global Commission on Drugs calls for end of drug prohibition with Juan Manuel Santos former President of Colombia, Dr. Ruth Dreifuss former President of Switzerland & Mohamed ElBaradei Nobel Laureate.

Audio file

10/28/20 Dr. Khalid Tinasti

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Khalid Tinasti
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

Pt 2: Dr. Khalid Tinasti, Exec Dir of Global Commission on Drugs participates in video production of Seeking The Moral High Ground.

Audio file

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (30:05)
There is more violence today than anything. The market is bigger than anything. There is more production. I mean, even when we know that even when there is a disruption, I mean, the records of production of opium, we're having cannabis that can not be disrupted because it's, it's basically produced in every country. I mean, even, I mean, 150 countries report production, but I mean, it's everywhere. And now we have new psychoactive substances. I mean, you are going through the fentanyl and the synthetics crisis. I mean, in other countries, there is overdoses related to synthetic cannabinoids because people, I mean, you know, people will be creative and will make things. So, I mean, again, just the walk, maybe the half mile there.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (30:49)
And just to say, it is much more easy and convenient to say, we're going to fight crime and we're going to go after these people. And we, aren't going to dry up the demand by being so harsh, et cetera. I mean, it is very much more difficult to speak about sophisticated neons approaches that are based on science that need to be evaluated little by little, especially when you have such a, um, how has a, um, difficult political, um, separation and difficult, you know, getting people together. But we have to get people together, back again around the table. And to some extent really say that this is a such a difficult issue. It's not white or black. It's not this or that. It, I mean, it has to be worked a lot and everyone will have to put in a bit of their own until we get there.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (31:37)
And we evaluate, and we find the best models, the reality, as well as that California can not have the same policies to some extent. I mean, even, you know, if we were in a perfect regulated markets where people have their rights protected by the law and their choices also respected by the law, et cetera, the models will be different because the substances that are used here are not the same use there because you know, the environments are not the same, et cetera. If you're in a small state, if you're in a bigger state, et cetera. So to some extent to say that, I mean, for me, it will be very, always very difficult to speak about, um, policy makers, not wanting the best for their country and for their people. Now there is a need, of course. I mean, change comes really through. I mean, it's always been coming through mostly, also through the ground, through the experiences and the experiments and what is going on.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (32:21)
I mean, you have a discussion in the United States that is huge about criminal justice reform currently and who goes to prisons, et cetera. I mean, that is also one of the biggest, biggest before the crisis, the overdoses crisis that have started of course, since a few years now, um, that is also a huge crisis that has been aggravated in the eighties and then the nineties with different policies, et cetera. So it is also about finding the entry doors. But again, there is just to finish up on this, even the United States and the United nations, when we go back again to this unintended consequences story that they came up with in 19, in 2008, because that was the a hundred years of drug control going from the 1909 Shanghai commission on opium. So they came up with this report. We can about unintended consequences as well of the current regime.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (33:08)
And one of them is what they call policy displacement. And the fact that now in every country in the world, budgetary displacements goes into more money, goes into law enforcement and does not go to hell, does not go to education, et cetera, other things that we need to lower the issues related to drugs. So, and it's always very hard in every, every country to take the money out of the pocket of law enforcement, we injustice or police, they always win the budgetary battle. And the health minister is always the one that loses that usually. And this is the case almost everywhere, because this is unfortunately the world we live in and it's going more and more security oriented to some extent, I mean, yeah, just to say it, to finalize on that. Yeah. All these issues are there, but they need to reach the public. And I think that what you're doing with your show as well is giving up the evidence and the information to people on the ground to understand much more how complex the issues are, but that there are solutions as well. That need to be pragmatic and realistic.

Dean Becker (34:07)
Thank you for that. Uh, uh, I, um, uh, you were talking about the, the police forces and, um, I don't know what I think it was about 1990, um, was the invasion of Panama, uh, that, uh, Noriega was the biggest drug dealer in the world. And the United States went down there and, and in the 24 hours, I guess, kicked his butt. And finally he came out of hiding and surrendered. Uh, but that's, that's kinda the extreme example, but here in the United States, every police force now has a SWAT team, has a modus operandi kick in the door, uh, shoot the dog, threatened the children, et cetera. And I guess to me, the morals of that process, that, that, that function are, are, are wrong. They're evil because we're always going to have drug users. There. There is no denying that we have always, since the beginning of time, people have used drugs, psychedelic drug bushes, who cares.

Dean Becker (35:09)
They have always tried to change their, uh, they drink reindeer P up in, in the, uh, um, uh, Alaska. And I guess what I'm saying is it's time to pull the plug on this it's time to find that solution we have every year, the U S invest 50 to $60 billion trying to stop the flow of drugs. But what most people do not recognize is that every year that terrorists the cartels, the gangs, the street corner vendors make 400 to $600 billion a year. They use that money to finance human trafficking and other criminal operations. And in essence, we're shooting ourselves in the foot with a machine gun 24 seven, your response Kaleo,

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (35:53)
No, I mean, it is. In fact, as I said, the fact of having chosen prohibition as a model was giving up control to some extent. I mean, we had the global commission have our 2014 report called take control and with the pathways to take the control. And we had that discussion of saying the title was retake control, but some, one of our commissioners stood up and said, no one has ever had the control. And it was in the hands of criminals since day one. I mean, we took it out of the hands of the traditional ceremonial use, which was more, um, which was less potent to some extent in India or in Nepal, et cetera, in different countries where there, I mean, and now we're having something that is very much more pot and powerful, et cetera. So, I mean, prohibition has also changed that the nature of the illegal market, because I mean, when you want to be, when you're, when you're, when you're a criminal, you also want to have stronger substances so that you can go and cut them much easier and have smaller quantities to pass, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (36:46)
So you go into more pot and issues, and that's why fentanyl is so successful as well, because it can hide it easily and you can sell it. You can add it with smaller quantities and you can sell it for the same price as heroin, et cetera. So of course, I know this is just like the perverse effects that come with it. And you find yourself with like, what, what was in the sixties is very different from what is in 2020. So it is a different world. I mean, the issue, it is very difficult not to say yes, of course this is the biggest market for the organized crime. I mean, uh, needing a kidney that's once in a lifetime, you know, for like, uh, for, for, for trafficking of Oregon's needing a weapon that is few times once, et cetera, et cetera, for traffic arms, but drugs, the demand is there.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (37:28)
And the demand can not be concealed. That is not a reality. I mean, that's why we look for societies that are without problematic use, where people use responsibly, where they don't cause problems to themselves or to others. So, and that is the majority of the users. Anyways, we're talking here about, uh, about 88 to 89% of people who use drugs around the world that are touched by the system, because also we know people who use drugs only they're arrested or go to the ER room or et cetera, et cetera, all the people that consume and not, not touched by the system, we don't know about them. So we have limited data. I mean, and it's very difficult to conceal that. Now also the fact how we respond to organized crime, organized crime works. It does not work in silos. They look for profits and for revenue, and so they can move very easily and they can have, they have very flexible structures.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (38:16)
We do have huge machines and state response. And in the authorities response, and you have the anti-corruption unit there, the antidromic unit there, you have, you know, each one is separated. Each one has its procedures, et cetera. And so there are so many cracks in the system to go through it, even under prohibition. So, I mean, there are ways to do better. Our last report of the global commission that was lounged in early may, 2020 does address this issue is I don't know how to address the under a prohibition model, how to do better, basically to raise the money, to infiltrate the organizations, how to have a better response is working, coming together, but also under regulated market. Because when you regulate the market, there are also opportunities of infiltration, et cetera. And if you leave people that were there, those that were controlled by organized crime, as the small hands, the dealers in the street that don't even make according to evidence, do not make the minimum wages, uh, or you know, the women in central America that are the couriers, and they don't even know the quantities they're carrying, or what did they, I mean, usually they don't even know what kind of penalties they would face by arriving into the other country and across and et cetera.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (39:26)
And of course, people who use and consume that is those are people that, I mean, should not be left behind. They need to be taken into account in the new market and also be taken with the market out of the hands of criminals, because those are people that are given also as soldiers to that market, because they have no other economic alternative to some extent. So we also include the nonviolent people there, but I mean, finally to say on the methods of intervention, I mean, the United States is a signatory of the universal declaration of human rights. And I mean, the way of intervening, it remains a very sovereign issue. So it's very difficult for an international person to speak about police intervention and law enforcement intervention into a, you know, a while and anti-drug campaigns. But of course, I mean, there are some minimums about people's dignity. I mean, people are innocent until proven guilty, even when there is an intervention of beliefs, et cetera, it is a judge that does, uh, give a judgment and not law enforcement. And I mean, people's rights. People do not lose their rights and their fundamental rights because they, they use a banned substance.

Dean Becker: (40:38)
I, um, I want to go back to, I have a shirt. I like to wear it from time to time. It says, nice people use drugs. And I know that one and many people, I, I can't give you a, uh, even a good approximation, but I would think it's in the high 90% of all drug use, maybe 90.9 is people enjoying themselves, uh, seeking a bit of euphoria. It is the, the result, many times of people not knowing what in the heck they're purchasing, how much to use that creates the problems of, uh, overdose and death. And, and it's, uh, it is, it is the policy that in the United States, we call these drugs controlled substances. And there's never been a bigger oxymoron on the planet. These drugs have no control

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (41:34)
Whatsoever. And I guess what I'm saying here is that the hype, the hysteria, the quote need for this drug war is so overblown from my perspective perspective, excuse me, it is totally unnecessary. It has no reason to exist. It is a quasi religion. That's 50 or a hundred years old. And, and I want your response. No, I mean, I mean, we are totally in agreement. I mean, people use drugs for a variety of reasons, you know, I mean, around the world and in the United States, I mean, it could be for seeking pleasure. It could be because of self-medication because of physical pain because of emotional pain. I mean, it's the diversity of, for experimentation for, I mean, the diversity of reasons. I mean, the very famous sentence that says that even a kid, if when you go, when you see kids, I mean, they go around the carousel in turn, turn, turn, turn, turn around until their head spins.

Dr. Khalid Tenastid Tenastisti: (42:28)
So people want to have their brain, you know, um, alter to some extent that is a human behavior. It is also an animal behavior in many animals that use many substances that they find through other plans. And so the fact of not accepting that is the big problem. And the other fact of having chosen a model of control that is based on saying addiction is evil. We need to stop it, but then promoting tobacco, alcohol coffee and all those other issues that are very commercially important. And at the same time, allowing, I mean, destroying the whole mild, um, traditional production and allowing pharmaceutical companies to go into, you know, synthesizing or producing whatever they want as substances and selling them in the market. You know, so at this, that, that, that difficulty between what people want to do and what is being pushed commercially, that also makes it very difficult, you know, to accept the system, plus all the impacts you've been speaking about that are huge.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (43:29)
And indeed it is, it is the policies that are also in part responsible for people's deaths. I mean, people it's to some extent do by the substances and that's their choice. And as a society, we have to reach that point where we accept that not everyone is going to be uniform. That is the reality. I mean, the United States is the country of the people coming from everywhere and living together and making the greatest country on earth. So it is the true, it is the country like that. And it will continue for a very long time. Its economy depends on that. Its culture depends on that, et cetera. It's the country where you are American before. Anything else when you are a lot of different things. So we have also to accept the fact that people will do use different substances. I mean, this is where we also need to go into these discussions as well.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (44:15)
I mean, we say that we need to bring in the cultural voices. We need to bring it to different voices, the religious voices, et cetera, but to open the base, to open discussions, this is a societal issue. This is about people, their own choices and making sure that they do not fall into these situation as you have this crime so well that people go and just buy something, but they have to do it so quickly. And they don't know what they're buying, et cetera, et cetera, because they're afraid of being caught because the dealer also is afraid of being caught, et cetera, and that they buy whatever they can and they go, and then they just don't even know how to use it really, to some extent or have someone to show them and they don't have access to clean material. And so they end up using the same material and getting infected with HIV and hepatitis, et cetera, and becoming and destroying their own lives, but also making all the society lose all its investments.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (45:02)
I mean, those are our, like every one of us in a society we're supposed to give back, we're supposed to work and everyone would love to do that and have the opportunity to work and be give back and be integrated in society, et cetera, et cetera. So we deny people also their place in society by rejecting them in that extent or not allowing them to have the services and also people that end up overdosing and not having help and not having the capacity to call for help. I mean, that is our terrible, terrible moment that no one, no one should be going through. I mean, it's this, we have to get out of this craziness. That repression is a deterrence. Now we know it's not, it's been almost 60 years that everything has been used prison eradication of crops, uh, long sentences. And as you've written about it as well, um, minimum, you know, mandatory minimums, et cetera, et cetera, at all levels.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (45:55)
I mean, state and County jails full of people consuming drugs alone, and that should never, ever, ever be that getting their lives destroyed with criminal records and not being able to reintegrate a society or their communities in the right way. Communities that have been impacted very, very heavily of course, by the war on drugs. Because when we speak about the one drug and we're addressing is in few areas as in the areas that are already poor and, and, you know, in difficult situations, it's not in the beautiful areas and with wealthy people. So all of these impacts yes. Have to be addressed of course, but the only way to get there it's really to start change somewhere and to open a discussion that gets bigger and bigger in society. And I think that that's something that happened for marijuana when people started to understand that no people are not going to be stabbing you in the street because marijuana is legal. Not no, the sun is still comes up that the United States will remain the United States. And that is something that just was done in a situation that was illegal and now it's just become illegal. So I mean the same demand is there, the same people are there. It didn't change much.

Dean Becker (46:58)
You mentioned the open discussion and over the years, the decades that I've been doing this, uh, I have contacted, you know, the offices of the drug enforcement administration, the Olin DCP, um, even though the president, a couple of times seeking a debate, seeking a discussion, similar to what we're doing now. And I have been absolutely shut down every time now. They don't even respond to my emails. They don't return my phone calls. And I guess what I'm saying here is that I claim

Dean Becker: (47:30)
The moral high ground. I think I own every square inch of it. And I would love to have that debate and they hide from me. Um, your response to that, sir.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (47:40)
Well, I mean, that is for, to some extent also, I mean, we, as a global commission have, um, less success in being in the U S discussion or in the Washington DC discussion and more particularly for the last few years. So, but the global commission for instance, was put in place to be a bridge between people on the ground and people in place. So this is something that we do country visits, for instance, where our commissioners visit a country, where there is a discussion and a debate about a reform. And they would meet with the civil society voice as they will try to organize public events, uh, to be visible. But they would also meet up with the highest level of authorities to take into, you know, to take those voices and bring them there and open up the debate. So they act as the door openers, to some extent our commissioners bring, bringing the evidence they're experienced, they're more authority, et cetera, because they have been in office.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (48:29)
They have been through that to some extent. So this is why our, uh, this is how we function at a global level of course, with our own capacity and what we can do. And we have to cover up so many discussions. I mean, from Tunisia to Malaysia, to, you know, South Africa, uh, Colombia, et cetera, et cetera, um, many, many different issues. Now, a country like the United States is much more permeable to international global level discussions. And that's where we also have some, our little sister as the regional commissions as the one in West Africa or the one that we spoke about in Latin America and other ones come in where they have a regional discussion that they try to open up a regional debate on a regional discussion. But with political champions that are from the region that do not necessarily have to have the same positions as us, but of course our basis is the human rights and the fundamental rights of people that we go from that point and where these political champions then educate themselves.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (49:25)
I mean, we had the experience in West Africa where we had the former president of Nigeria, the mr. Obasanjo who himself has educated himself about the issue of drug policy has seen evidence to him when he started the West Africa commission, working with our commissioners and mr. And the late mr. Kofi Annan, he was for him really to address the, the, the, the increase in traffic. And because it became the new routes since it's so difficult to go through the Caribbean and the central America now. So the new, yeah. And so, and so, but he ended up seeing that consumption was going up, that the health related issues were coming in, that the over-incarceration is coming in, the human rights violations are coming in. And so he became one of the most wonderful voices for change in the region, going around and seeing people in office and trying, you know, and get bringing the evidence and bring in the discussion and also bring it in recommendations that are adapted to the region that are not necessarily the same as the global commission that says we need to regulate every drug with different models, because the state to take control and has to take responsibility.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (50:30)
This is not okay to leave it in the hands of criminals on the regional levels. It's more adaptable to the realities and it educates the people from the region, and it is a debate between the people in the region. So these are the kinds of mechanisms we're trying to put in place, of course, but as you would know, I mean, just to respond very quickly. Again, it is always about the political capital and how much you can build up in this. It's been only really 10 years. And I mean, I think that the marijuana experience is very different with what has been started with someone like Ethan Nadelmann since the nineties, and trying to get into the medical marijuana, et cetera, and proving its efficacy and, and better regulation than, than in the black market. But it's also, you know, something that is evolving very quickly and it's building up. I mean, you see now that so many States do vote for that for the legalization. And I think that the debate that what you've been doing for the last 20 years will pay off because it's also the whole public opinion that is also shifting and looking into the evidence and listen in a bit more. But of course this takes time, especially in a world now where people get so much information every minute with different channels, proven and unproven, true and fake, et cetera, et cetera, but we will eventually get there.

Dean Becker: (51:42)
I think you're right now, um, in a way, this is a facetious question, but what is the benefit of drug war?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (51:52)
Well, I mean, no, the benefit is big. I mean, if you look at it to some extent there a wall of money, I mean the prohibition money is no, but I mean

Dean Becker: (52:00)
Our neighborhoods, what is the benefit?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (52:03)
Well, I mean, just to say, I mean to say this is not ironic, but in reality, I mean the prohibition of money money is, I mean, and the criminal money is there is huge laundering and ends up being for the most luxurious, the biggest, um, you know, goods in, in, in the real economy. So there is a lot of interests there. There's the laundering of the money coming from there, there is all the yards, et cetera, et cetera, that could be bought with that. So there is an interest for some legal economy and there's a lot of interest for the criminal economy, but there is no good for no one. It does not protect our kids from drugs in no way. Our kids are very exposed to drugs. I mean, in what city in the world, you can not find heroin or cocaine or cannabis in five minutes. You can find it everywhere that easily. I mean, it's, I mean, what I said, maybe it was called, but it was really to say it's true. There are some people that benefit from it, but it's again, yeah. Not those that need to be protected,

Dean Becker: (53:07)
But yeah. Nothing for me or you or our kids or our neighborhood.

, Dr. Khalid Tenasti: No

10/21/20 Dr. Khalid Tinasti

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Khalid Tinasti
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

Dr. Khalid Tinasti, Exec Dir of Global Commission on Drugs participates in video production of Seeking The Moral High Ground.

Audio file

Dean Becker (00:29)
Well it gives me a great deal of satisfaction and pride actually, to be speaking with mr. [inaudible] tenacity. I believe I got that name right. He's the executive secretary with the global commission on drugs. And I want to welcome him to the show. Hello, Kaleel.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti (01:06)
Thank you, Dean. I'm very happy to be here with you.

Dean Becker (01:08)
Well, I, um, I've been following you guys, uh, for, well, I guess the 10 years or so that the global commission has been, uh, uh, in place. And if you will tell us a bit about the global commission on drug policy, what is it about?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (01:23)
Thank you very much, Dean. Actually, you're very right. The global commission has come out with its first report and has come out to the world in June, 2011 with its report called the war on drugs. And also the documentary movie that was going with a break into taboo. But if we really look into the origins of the global commission, they go back to 2000 to the end of 2007, when president Fernando Henrica DOSO of Brazil with presidents, former presidents is a DEO from Mexico and says that guy Vidya from Columbia came together to create the Latin American commission on drugs and democracy because of the risks that the response given to drugs has been putting on the institutions on democratization and empower in criminal organizations and in violence in cities and Latin and central America. And so these, these former presidents came together with a group of other intellectuals and offer former office holders and writers from Latin America to look into what are the issues and what recommendations they can come up with.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (02:23)
And that's when they looked out into Europe. And so that Europe, by implementing harm reduction responses, decriminalization models for personal use and possession have been more successful in, in managing basically the presence and the consumption of drugs among society, although it was banned to some basically. And so this is how the global commission came together. And it was the meeting between the Latin Americans who have really were behind, you know, given that leadership to this discussion and the Europeans who came in as well and joined them as well. Other people with also mr. Kofi Annan from Africa, et cetera, the global commission has came up with this first analysis report in 2011 of course was not the first to say we have a problem with drugs. And that problem is also related to the policies to the control policies we put in place, but it was the first time that such high level people that were themselves for many in office back at the United nations general assembly special session in 1998, who had said that by 2008 will have the world free of drugs.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (03:25)
So many of them were signatories and were in that meeting as representative of their countries as heads of States. And they have come up together for some of them who had been very good policies. And for some others who had really believed in prohibition to be able to help people came together to say, we have something that is wrong with the way we do it, because we, first of all, not achieving any of the results, consumption, trafficking, violence, um, production, you know, um, lack of rule of law corruption, uh, all sorts of, you know, infectious diseases, et cetera, are going up and really high up while we spend more and more on enforcement, et cetera. So there is a problem with maybe the use of drugs and that is something to be discussed in another area, but there is also a huge, huge consequences that add up in the way we do control policies.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (04:15)
And so just very to finish up on the global commission because we're very fortunate. It has been renewed for the last nine years. We had many, many new people joining from former president Ramos Horta from two more or less day. We had mr. Bereday from the, uh, uh, atomic agency that, uh, the former director that has joined us from Egypt. We had mrs. Helen Clark from New Zealand. So it really took this big global, um, trend. And so it is people coming up from every part of the world and come into the same conclusion that the war on drugs and the way we try to control drugs through the refreshing alone and a law enforcement focus is adding up a lot of harms. So this is in a nutshell, I mean, I can go way beyond on this and what we do. It's that true?

Dean Becker (04:59)
No, that touched a lot of the bases. I probably would have inquired about a good summation if you will. And I thank you for that now. I don't know if you had a chance to look at my website, the conscientious objector page. Did you have a chance to look at it? Well, your response to what I put forward there, just in general.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (05:20)
Yeah. I mean, well, in general, I mean, you have, I mean, when, when it is something, I mean, it is very difficult to object to the way you have looked into the issues and saying, what are the impacts of the way we look into or the way we try to control drugs or the way we control to make them disappear from society? I mean, we all agree of course, that there is a demand and there's a demand for psychosis, psychoactive substances through all over the world, the legal ones and the illegal ones. I mean, the whole system of saying what is legal and illegal is based on the potential of addictiveness of a, of a substance. Why do we live alcohol and tobacco outside of that and not have the same levels of control? So it is for sure to say that people look for psychoactive substances and there is a demand.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (06:02)
So the supply will always follow because it's also a sustained demand. And the fact of trying to, to hide that reality and trying to break that reality and, and trying to live in a parallel world does create many, many issues. First of all, I mean, everyone, even the United nations recognized that recognizes this since 2008. And as you said, it, one of the, what we call the unintended consequences of the regime of control, which are, I mean, they've been recognized since 2008 and they still considered unintended. So the first of them is, is the black market itself and the illegal market. And the fact that the policy choice was to leave it in the hands of criminals and not have authorities or regulators taken that market and regulated it's regulated, it's access, limiting it depending on the substance, et cetera, et cetera. So all the impact to speak about what is going on in Latin America, what is going on in terms of funding of different groups, of different criminal groups. Those also sometimes engaged in Tara, although the evidence there is less clear, it's also more about opportunistic relationships in certain areas of the world, et cetera. So that is a clear vision of the real impacts actually in the big, big impacts of what is going on in the world. So thank you. Thank you

Dean Becker (07:17)
Before that. Uh, and yeah, I, I've devoted 20 years of my life of 60 hours a week. Really. I I've, uh, I've uh, uh, we reached the age of 50 and decided I wanted to leave something more positive behind for future generations. And if I can help move this equation, this situation to one of less harm to do one of two quit empowering the cartels, at least, uh, I think the terrorists, they grow marijuana and opium over there in Afghanistan, Lebanon, and I'm sure ISIS and the Taliban get a cut now. And then if, if not, uh, uh, billions outright. But, um, we have in these United States, we have led the way we were the ones who insisted the United nations take up this banner to March with this war on drugs. And for years we, um, four and eight, we had a requirement that they had to join forces with the drug war. It was the United nations, excuse me, it was the U S that that forced this drug war at least to such a degree on the rest of the world. And it is my hope that the United States can begin to undo that process to demand less of other nations and, and to, uh, create a situation where logic and common sense can get back into this rather than paranoia and delusion your response to your colleagues.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (08:40)
Yeah, I mean, it is for certain, I mean, the United States has been the biggest, I mean, we can not limit the contribution. I mean, the, the contribution of the United States to, to the multilateral system and to the world and into spreading democracy, et cetera, is a huge one, but it goes in the war on drugs in the bad side. But I mean, it is a, it is everything. So maybe just to be less hard from the perspective of an international person and not to be less harsh, but just to neons the bit, I mean, the international drug system was built really. I mean, it is the conventions of drug policy are the very, almost the only ones that speak about an evil and evil of addiction. And so it was really built up in the sixties around when, when, when social hygiene, ism is a movement among doctors and politicians, teaching people how to, how to do not to catch infectious diseases, not to get to BRCA locis, to be cleaner, et cetera, not to get, you know, the basic, uh, infectious disease.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (09:38)
So it was still the belief that you could through policies really change human behavior. And the problem with that system is that it continued like this, but it worked in a world that is very different. It never take into account the end of the eighties. It never take into account. The fact that border control has changed with world globalization and that we no longer speak about, you know, the same controls of the borders that are closed, et cetera, with the quantities of the goods of the people that are going around. I mean, we see it today with the Kobe, then the spread and the very rapid spread because people are moving, et cetera, et cetera. And when you lock down is different. So there is no more way to control as we used to do before, or what was intended in the sixties. There's also the fact that the HIV response for instance, has changed how we do public health approaches.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (10:22)
You can no longer impose on a person. I mean, if we think about people that are dependent on any or another substance, you can no longer really impose on them a treatment or for them to adhere to a treatment, they have to choose it. And that was the case that was HIV brought about condoms are choice, and the patient becomes a partner and not someone you would tell to what to do. And it can actually, we continue it in the system because it fed so many different things and we've never had to change it now today. I mean, so I see that system as having been, you know, staying the same may be in the sixties. It was well-intended and it was to respond to a situation that was like that, but there is no renewable, there's no modernization of the tools when normally public policy has to evolve, of course, with scientific progress on human progress to adapt to the needs today.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (11:11)
So it is the, in that sense where the reforms are very much needed because we know much better how to control them to eliminate doesn't expand or to regulate them to eliminate. And obviously what makes it very hard in which we're trying not to speak about it, to stay in a rational discussion is that the casualties are people and their lives and currently, so, but we try to remain also as pragmatic in the discussion as possible. Now, when you say about the United States that to change and to change at the global level, that would be fantastic because the problem that is now existing at the multilateral level is that the five countries with a permanent seat in the security council do agree altogether on the prohibition as the way to go. And no one of them is carrying the ideas of the reform or the discussion of the reform that changes a lot because those countries not only have a financial power and do have, you know, a, a very strong political power within the system, but it is also countries that do have real diplomatic network around the world that can work on their priorities.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (12:12)
And that can work on this change little by little. I mean, this is something that will never happen overnight. We do have 50 years of something where everybody agreed where it was given to people as granted that this is evil, that people who use drugs are bad people, et cetera, et cetera, that elimination is the only way to say no to drugs, et cetera. So to undo all of that, to have a, it's almost a cultural shift that is needed to some extent, so it will take the time. And hopefully of course, when the reforms at the national level in the United States will evolve, we see it in different States trying so many different things to address the situations of the opiod crisis, but also the cannabis prohibition. And also sometimes, I mean, other substances being looked at, et cetera, when that will have also given the evidence on its function and et cetera, that performs we'll have to move up the ladder and hopefully until the international level. Yes. Thank you.

Dean Becker (13:07)
No, I, a couple of years back, I was able to go to Europe. I, uh, uh, and, and Lisbon Portugal, I was able to sit down with a doctor [inaudible] the, uh, the drugs are. And, uh, he and I had a great discussion. We just had another one last week as well for this production of, uh, seeking the moral high ground. And he has done something that is being emulated that is being copied around the world. That is the decriminalization of drugs, that there are no longer arrest for minor amounts of drugs that maybe you go for treatment. Maybe you go for a good talking to, uh, but, but nobody is arrested. And, and Canada is the police chiefs of Canada are wanting to copy that. Now the, uh, the head of the Canadian police chiefs came out and called for decriminalization of all drugs, uh, to follow suit to what Portugal has done.

Dean Becker (13:59)
And, uh, another topic that, uh, I, I went to Switzerland, I there met, uh, dr. Kristoff Berkey. He was one of the pioneers who designed their, uh, heroin injection program. They're now approaching 20 million injections of pure heroin. And, uh, they have had zero overdose deaths, which, which I think undoes the logic that we were talking about, what was created 50 years ago, drug users are bad and deserving of punishment. And I guess what I'm saying here is that changes a foot changes is being recognized as being of benefit, uh, and, and to do away with these old hysteria situations. I don't know if there's a question there other than it's a sign of progress is not.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (14:52)
It is, it is. I mean, just think about it. This is, I mean, if you look at the policy area, even the discussion discussions that are becoming now very much mainstream, I mean, I would just give two examples. The first one is that, I mean, really it is about one of the areas of policy areas where the wrongs are being repaired very quickly. I mean, it's very difficult. It's very hard, but if we look at it, I mean, really with disabilities, to some extent it is the issue that has moved so much in the last 10, 15 years. It did being on the number of debates on the fact that we can speak about it. I mean, who could have seen, uh, marijuana legalized in so many who has space for recreational use, et cetera, and growing, and in a country like Canada at the federal level, et cetera.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (15:31)
So that is one that has really, really very much evolved now. Um, I mean, the decriminalization is a way to move because there is absolutely no. Um, how do I say? Yeah, I mean, sorry, let me come back to the second example, because that was what was in my mind, I said two, I mean, the second one, if you compare now the coverage of the opioid crisis in the United States and the coverage of the crack crisis in the 1980s, I mean, the coverage is very different, even in the language and trying to look into what are the issues, et cetera. So it has indeed evolved. People will start understanding that addiction. I mean, we say dependence because we use the terminology of who, but addiction is the word in the United States that is still used, but here in Europe, we don't. So for us, addiction slash dependence is a chronic disease.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (16:22)
That includes, that includes a relapse. So to some extent, that's why the global commission on drug policy does not agree with the drug courts that sends people into rehabilitation treatment, because that does not take into account that people do relapse and they would go to prison. Otherwise, if they do relapse instead. And also the fact that, of course, no judge should be taken a decision of a doctor to some extent. So I wanted, yeah, I mean, to say these two example, they do really evolve. And in Switzerland, the program of diamorphine that you were speaking about is a program that is extremely controlled. It is a health approach. It is, but the idea there was to say, we have, I mean, the, the, the very pragmatic discussion was, first of all, let's put in place all the services and to save people and let's evaluate them and see if they work or not.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (17:11)
And of course, as you've said, there is a very strict monitoring and evaluation. That program is very difficult even to access because people have to have really a need of diamorphine and not be able to have the fin or methadone or other substitution treatments, then that's how they get there. But of course, now we have evaluation. You've spoken about Portugal, but there are so many different countries that have different models of, of decriminalization. Those commissions of this wage in the, in Portugal are a very, very interesting model because people still have to face somehow, you know, to talk to someone, to talk to many people and say, you know, and so they are conscious that this is not something that is easy. For example, in the Czech Republic is different. It's only a misdemeanor and you just get a fine, so there are many different models, but of course they have been proven. And I mean, there's evidence and there's evaluation.

Dean Becker (17:58)
Now. Um, the other news coming out of Canada, uh, a dr. Perry, Kendall, uh, he has 20 years experience as the British Columbia commissioner on substance abuse, something some titled to that effect, and he's now retiring, but he wants to start up a company to acquire heroin cheaply and to provide it cheaply to the users in Canada, uh, to kind of parallel, I guess what they've done in Switzerland. It's another sign of intelligence from my perspective, because in the U S I don't know, I think it was just over 70,000 people died last year from drug overdoses, because I closed my radio show with this side because of prohibition. You don't know what's in that bag, please be careful. And there's just so much truth. And I think heart in that phrase, your response here, Kaleo.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (18:51)
Yeah. I mean, for us, I mean, those are two really. I mean, just to be again, Dean, I think that you are, of course this is, I mean, I haven't heard specifically about this idea of opening. I mean, they do have a heroin program that is not really a diamorphine programs. One Canada is not working very well, but nevertheless, I mean, those are two issues. So as far as the global commission is really concerned, I mean, diamorphine, if we take the example in Switzerland, it is a very medical program. I mean, this is with very much rules, regulations. People have to try at least twice and other substitution treatment. And it's really for people that are heavily dependent on the substance. So just for the people listening to know that this is something that is very medical and it is a medical procedure. So people go to a day clinic, you know, to get the diamorphine et cetera, which was fantastic because you're in COVID since people who inject drugs were considered as people that are vulnerable to COBIT infection.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (19:35)
I mean, there were some very exceptions to deliver to their homes. The diamorphine, it was a great innovation to keep people alive here during the COVID lockdowns. Um, now on when we say, and, and you touched up on something that is so important, which is about the quality of what people buy or even knowing what they buy, if they are buying the right substance or not. But that is for us, this is the difficulty with this ideological difficulty against a harm reduction, because I mean, drug testing, et cetera, do exist. And those need to be allowed to be implemented at all levels at city level, at state level, at the federal level. Now there is also the issues of, um, I mean, a city like Amsterdam, or even here in Geneva, for example, where people who inject drugs and are dependent on drugs that go to services like safe injection facilities that go into, you know, different services, those people, they, if there is a problem, they can be caught very quickly and they could report what substance, what they bought it.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (20:31)
And so the analysis goes very quickly and the services of the city, even in Amsterdam, they even put like ads in the street saying something is going on in the black market, do not buy this substance. And even here in Switzerland, for example, in Geneva and the communities, because they see what is going on at the safe injection room when they see people arriving. Because, but this is because people are not afraid to come forward because the cops are not going to be called because they're considered patients because they're given the services of harm reduction services, which allow people then to be sent to the doctors. If they have problems to see also the factors or to go into treatment, you know, people send them, so they do testing also for infectious diseases, et cetera, to send them afterwards to the hospital, to have it a regular treatment regimen.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:13)
I mean, not for drugs, but if there's any other issue or if they want to enter into a cycle of treatment, because here we also have, the fact of everything is offered to people have to choose. They could choose the substitution treatment as maintenance for forever. If they can not get out of it, they could use it for a certain period. They can go to rehabilitation and abstinence. I mean, it really is about a therapeutic contract between the doctor and the patient. So it is not about imposing to people what they have to do, it's to help them choose how they get out of their difficult situation. And here again, we're talking only about people with heavy dependence that go to the services, et cetera. We're not talking about the vast majority, which is a recreational, which has no issues. And we don't see. So yeah, I mean, this is the fact of, that's why decriminalization is very interesting so that people can come forward so that the authorities have the information of what is going on in the market.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:55)
And for example, some cities can just be in the United States saying like, we have, we have so many fentanyl on the streets, be careful of not buying this, et cetera, et cetera. And those are messages of prevention of course, and keeping people alive. Yeah. But that, that's very hard to do in a repressive environment where people are afraid of law enforcement everywhere in the world, you know, and I will, I think it's more, more powerful. The, the stigma here in the United States that, uh, I mean, you probably heard the phrase, you, if you're getting busted for drugs, you can no longer get a job, credited housing, an education. Uh, there are so many roadblocks put in your way. So many court fees and fines and other obstacles to creating a new life, a new process. And I guess what I'm saying here is that what you guys are doing in Europe and elsewhere, it shows intelligence.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (22:51)
It shows that this is still a human being. It's still a life worthy of respect. And second chances, third chances, more chances. And, and here in the U S as well, once you get that stigma of a druggie, your life is facing a lot of obstacles. Well, I, there's also, I mean, that is, I totally agree with you. And there is no way, no way, no way to minimize the impacts of stigma and discrimination on people's lives. And most certainly on people that are in the most difficult situation to start with. Right. But I mean, and that stigma is more related. It's not only about drugs. I mean, let's be honest. It's about a lot of things. Drugs are cross-cutting issue. They touch upon so many wrong things in our societies. It also falls. I mean, even the implementation of drug laws is so arbitrary people that can afford to do it behind high walls that no one sees they do.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (23:43)
And they don't, they're not impacted to get arrested, et cetera. They get people to deliver to their homes, et cetera, whatever they need. So it is also that nature of arbitrary that makes it very difficult. And it goes also again to all the populations, but I mean, people are starting to get aggressive with death and we are getting out of marijuana because, um, I don't know if this is positive or negative, but I saw the, um, uh, author of the wire, you know, the TV show. And he was speaking about Colorado in their experiment of the marijuana legalization. He was saying that he was worried because in an interview and he was saying, he was worried to some extent, because we are getting out the people that have the political voice, the college white college students, we're getting them out of this, of the prohibition, if we legalize cannabis, because in my want, because that's their substance and what is going to be the issue with other people that use other drugs and do not have that same voice that do not have that same social status and class, and that do not have that same presence in the public debate.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (24:35)
So it is so drugs are used a lot as a bond for a lot of things as well, but those are also issues that are related to the socioeconomic, to the ethnic et cetera issues. And that is not only in the United States, that is the case in the United Kingdom. That is the case in France. That is the case in the Russian Federation, where more people that are arrested do not have Slavic names. They have other names. This is the case everywhere. You know, I mean, you can look at it in every perspective and countries of the South countries of the North, the rich countries, et cetera, when you have something that is, that has been so stigmatized and built being built. That's why I said the convention speak about addiction as evil. So this is the state of spirit that we have since the very beginning into this discussion at the time, also to remember that, of course, as I said, maybe the intentions were good, maybe not, but to some extent at the time Europe was in reconstruction, um, the many countries in the South we're getting there, we're getting there decolonized.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (25:29)
This is where to thinking about the sixties. I mean, most of Africa has been getting its independence in 1960, et cetera. And of course the United States was becoming the cultural hedge amount around the world, et cetera. And so that was what, the kind of spirit that went everywhere that went everywhere, which is really funny because at the same time, alcohol and tobacco were glorified and were sold and pushed through marketing, et cetera. So, and this is the spirit that was still fine today, almost everywhere. It is the case in the United States versus very sad because the United States, of course, I mean, people have more access to education, to information more easily, et cetera. And they should get a little bit more informed on the issues to understand also, I mean, I mean, problematic drug use is not far away from anyone's life. Anyone can fall into different circumstances, you know?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (26:15)
And so people have to look at it into a perspective from a societal societal perspective. What kind of societies do we want is these injustices that are not very far from anyone and the opiod crisis shows it. I mean, people from all social classes die, people suffer from everywhere, et cetera. So it is about getting informed about what kind of societies will want together. This is why the global commission has always called since the very beginning for, um, net for local national stay, you know, consultations people around the table, talking get in parents of children, getting the police, getting school teachers, getting people who use drugs, get in, uh, health workers, social workers, uh, prosecutors, everyone around the table so that everyone can hear the concerns of everyone. I mean, this is a one society. People have to sit together and find the issue. And this is what happened in Switzerland actually to prepare the national policy of the four pillars, which is a prevention treatment harm reduction repression.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (27:11)
So this is how drug policy is handled here is the four pillars. And so that was based on many, many, many federal kind of tonal because it's also here, a federal country, fentanyl and local, uh, consultations and discussions where people would come in and say their issues about Lake, you know, the neighborhoods with, with the syringes in the street, uh, people being afraid because the syringes are near the parks where the children play the perspective of the police, the perspective of the prosecutors. And, you know, so everyone has to come together to find a consensus, to some extent and advance the issues little by little. But I mean, again, just to say, it's been 50 years of, you know, making the same nod and it's so big now that it has to be done a little by little by little by little, because whenever you try to do something so quick, the unintended consequences become very big because drug policy is so cross cut into so many other issues to health, to housing, to employment, you know, it is with a person. So it touches upon everything.

Dean Becker (28:11)
What you bring forward there. I want to kind of delve into, and that is the cantons I guess, are the sub governmental agencies and whatever, but we haven't United States. We have the 50 States, we've got cities counties. And then, then we have, uh, governors versus state congresses, et cetera, people battling on this issue. But what, what, uh, where the changes are being made are on the local level cities deciding they're not going to enforce a law as vigorously or in the same way as they did before my city of Houston being a prime example, um, you can have up to four ounces of marijuana now and not be arrested. You get a ticket and you got to take a class and that's in essence, contrary to state law, or I dunno, skirts the state law in some fashion. And I guess what I want to bring forward is that at the national level, the federal level, we have just a handful of people.

Dean Becker (29:15)
The, the U S attorney general, the head of the DEA, the head of the office of national drug control policy, a few others who have this quote authority whose pronouncements ensure that these drug laws continue forever because they, they quote have the moral authority. They know what in the heck they're doing. And I would love the opportunity to have five minutes to show. They don't have a clue what they're doing because they, they, they don't care how many people die. How, how many kids have access, how many gangs and terrorists are funded. They just do not care about that. They have a mandate that's as you say, that started out 50 years ago as being, you know, sanctified and pure, but it has been shown to be nothing but madness from my perspective, you know, your responsibility.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (30:05)
Well, I mean, the impacts are the impacts of the prohibition on the war, on drugs and being very repressive can not be concealed.

Dean Becker (00:29)
Well it gives me a great deal of satisfaction and pride actually, to be speaking with mr. [inaudible] tenacity. I believe I got that name right. He's the executive secretary with the global commission on drugs. And I want to welcome him to the show. Hello, Kaleel.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti (01:06)
Thank you, Dean. I'm very happy to be here with you.

Dean Becker (01:08)
Well, I, um, I've been following you guys, uh, for, well, I guess the 10 years or so that the global commission has been, uh, uh, in place. And if you will tell us a bit about the global commission on drug policy, what is it about?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (01:23)
Thank you very much, Dean. Actually, you're very right. The global commission has come out with its first report and has come out to the world in June, 2011 with its report called the war on drugs. And also the documentary movie that was going with a break into taboo. But if we really look into the origins of the global commission, they go back to 2000 to the end of 2007, when president Fernando Henrica DOSO of Brazil with presidents, former presidents is a DEO from Mexico and says that guy Vidya from Columbia came together to create the Latin American commission on drugs and democracy because of the risks that the response given to drugs has been putting on the institutions on democratization and empower in criminal organizations and in violence in cities and Latin and central America. And so these, these former presidents came together with a group of other intellectuals and offer former office holders and writers from Latin America to look into what are the issues and what recommendations they can come up with.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (02:23)
And that's when they looked out into Europe. And so that Europe, by implementing harm reduction responses, decriminalization models for personal use and possession have been more successful in, in managing basically the presence and the consumption of drugs among society, although it was banned to some basically. And so this is how the global commission came together. And it was the meeting between the Latin Americans who have really were behind, you know, given that leadership to this discussion and the Europeans who came in as well and joined them as well. Other people with also mr. Kofi Annan from Africa, et cetera, the global commission has came up with this first analysis report in 2011 of course was not the first to say we have a problem with drugs. And that problem is also related to the policies to the control policies we put in place, but it was the first time that such high level people that were themselves for many in office back at the United nations general assembly special session in 1998, who had said that by 2008 will have the world free of drugs.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (03:25)
So many of them were signatories and were in that meeting as representative of their countries as heads of States. And they have come up together for some of them who had been very good policies. And for some others who had really believed in prohibition to be able to help people came together to say, we have something that is wrong with the way we do it, because we, first of all, not achieving any of the results, consumption, trafficking, violence, um, production, you know, um, lack of rule of law corruption, uh, all sorts of, you know, infectious diseases, et cetera, are going up and really high up while we spend more and more on enforcement, et cetera. So there is a problem with maybe the use of drugs and that is something to be discussed in another area, but there is also a huge, huge consequences that add up in the way we do control policies.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (04:15)
And so just very to finish up on the global commission because we're very fortunate. It has been renewed for the last nine years. We had many, many new people joining from former president Ramos Horta from two more or less day. We had mr. Bereday from the, uh, uh, atomic agency that, uh, the former director that has joined us from Egypt. We had mrs. Helen Clark from New Zealand. So it really took this big global, um, trend. And so it is people coming up from every part of the world and come into the same conclusion that the war on drugs and the way we try to control drugs through the refreshing alone and a law enforcement focus is adding up a lot of harms. So this is in a nutshell, I mean, I can go way beyond on this and what we do. It's that true?

Dean Becker (04:59)
No, that touched a lot of the bases. I probably would have inquired about a good summation if you will. And I thank you for that now. I don't know if you had a chance to look at my website, the conscientious objector page. Did you have a chance to look at it? Well, your response to what I put forward there, just in general.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (05:20)
Yeah. I mean, well, in general, I mean, you have, I mean, when, when it is something, I mean, it is very difficult to object to the way you have looked into the issues and saying, what are the impacts of the way we look into or the way we try to control drugs or the way we control to make them disappear from society? I mean, we all agree of course, that there is a demand and there's a demand for psychosis, psychoactive substances through all over the world, the legal ones and the illegal ones. I mean, the whole system of saying what is legal and illegal is based on the potential of addictiveness of a, of a substance. Why do we live alcohol and tobacco outside of that and not have the same levels of control? So it is for sure to say that people look for psychoactive substances and there is a demand.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (06:02)
So the supply will always follow because it's also a sustained demand. And the fact of trying to, to hide that reality and trying to break that reality and, and trying to live in a parallel world does create many, many issues. First of all, I mean, everyone, even the United nations recognized that recognizes this since 2008. And as you said, it, one of the, what we call the unintended consequences of the regime of control, which are, I mean, they've been recognized since 2008 and they still considered unintended. So the first of them is, is the black market itself and the illegal market. And the fact that the policy choice was to leave it in the hands of criminals and not have authorities or regulators taken that market and regulated it's regulated, it's access, limiting it depending on the substance, et cetera, et cetera. So all the impact to speak about what is going on in Latin America, what is going on in terms of funding of different groups, of different criminal groups. Those also sometimes engaged in Tara, although the evidence there is less clear, it's also more about opportunistic relationships in certain areas of the world, et cetera. So that is a clear vision of the real impacts actually in the big, big impacts of what is going on in the world. So thank you. Thank you

Dean Becker (07:17)
Before that. Uh, and yeah, I, I've devoted 20 years of my life of 60 hours a week. Really. I I've, uh, I've uh, uh, we reached the age of 50 and decided I wanted to leave something more positive behind for future generations. And if I can help move this equation, this situation to one of less harm to do one of two quit empowering the cartels, at least, uh, I think the terrorists, they grow marijuana and opium over there in Afghanistan, Lebanon, and I'm sure ISIS and the Taliban get a cut now. And then if, if not, uh, uh, billions outright. But, um, we have in these United States, we have led the way we were the ones who insisted the United nations take up this banner to March with this war on drugs. And for years we, um, four and eight, we had a requirement that they had to join forces with the drug war. It was the United nations, excuse me, it was the U S that that forced this drug war at least to such a degree on the rest of the world. And it is my hope that the United States can begin to undo that process to demand less of other nations and, and to, uh, create a situation where logic and common sense can get back into this rather than paranoia and delusion your response to your colleagues.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (08:40)
Yeah, I mean, it is for certain, I mean, the United States has been the biggest, I mean, we can not limit the contribution. I mean, the, the contribution of the United States to, to the multilateral system and to the world and into spreading democracy, et cetera, is a huge one, but it goes in the war on drugs in the bad side. But I mean, it is a, it is everything. So maybe just to be less hard from the perspective of an international person and not to be less harsh, but just to neons the bit, I mean, the international drug system was built really. I mean, it is the conventions of drug policy are the very, almost the only ones that speak about an evil and evil of addiction. And so it was really built up in the sixties around when, when, when social hygiene, ism is a movement among doctors and politicians, teaching people how to, how to do not to catch infectious diseases, not to get to BRCA locis, to be cleaner, et cetera, not to get, you know, the basic, uh, infectious disease.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (09:38)
So it was still the belief that you could through policies really change human behavior. And the problem with that system is that it continued like this, but it worked in a world that is very different. It never take into account the end of the eighties. It never take into account. The fact that border control has changed with world globalization and that we no longer speak about, you know, the same controls of the borders that are closed, et cetera, with the quantities of the goods of the people that are going around. I mean, we see it today with the Kobe, then the spread and the very rapid spread because people are moving, et cetera, et cetera. And when you lock down is different. So there is no more way to control as we used to do before, or what was intended in the sixties. There's also the fact that the HIV response for instance, has changed how we do public health approaches.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (10:22)
You can no longer impose on a person. I mean, if we think about people that are dependent on any or another substance, you can no longer really impose on them a treatment or for them to adhere to a treatment, they have to choose it. And that was the case that was HIV brought about condoms are choice, and the patient becomes a partner and not someone you would tell to what to do. And it can actually, we continue it in the system because it fed so many different things and we've never had to change it now today. I mean, so I see that system as having been, you know, staying the same may be in the sixties. It was well-intended and it was to respond to a situation that was like that, but there is no renewable, there's no modernization of the tools when normally public policy has to evolve, of course, with scientific progress on human progress to adapt to the needs today.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (11:11)
So it is the, in that sense where the reforms are very much needed because we know much better how to control them to eliminate doesn't expand or to regulate them to eliminate. And obviously what makes it very hard in which we're trying not to speak about it, to stay in a rational discussion is that the casualties are people and their lives and currently, so, but we try to remain also as pragmatic in the discussion as possible. Now, when you say about the United States that to change and to change at the global level, that would be fantastic because the problem that is now existing at the multilateral level is that the five countries with a permanent seat in the security council do agree altogether on the prohibition as the way to go. And no one of them is carrying the ideas of the reform or the discussion of the reform that changes a lot because those countries not only have a financial power and do have, you know, a, a very strong political power within the system, but it is also countries that do have real diplomatic network around the world that can work on their priorities.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (12:12)
And that can work on this change little by little. I mean, this is something that will never happen overnight. We do have 50 years of something where everybody agreed where it was given to people as granted that this is evil, that people who use drugs are bad people, et cetera, et cetera, that elimination is the only way to say no to drugs, et cetera. So to undo all of that, to have a, it's almost a cultural shift that is needed to some extent, so it will take the time. And hopefully of course, when the reforms at the national level in the United States will evolve, we see it in different States trying so many different things to address the situations of the opiod crisis, but also the cannabis prohibition. And also sometimes, I mean, other substances being looked at, et cetera, when that will have also given the evidence on its function and et cetera, that performs we'll have to move up the ladder and hopefully until the international level. Yes. Thank you.

Dean Becker (13:07)
No, I, a couple of years back, I was able to go to Europe. I, uh, uh, and, and Lisbon Portugal, I was able to sit down with a doctor [inaudible] the, uh, the drugs are. And, uh, he and I had a great discussion. We just had another one last week as well for this production of, uh, seeking the moral high ground. And he has done something that is being emulated that is being copied around the world. That is the decriminalization of drugs, that there are no longer arrest for minor amounts of drugs that maybe you go for treatment. Maybe you go for a good talking to, uh, but, but nobody is arrested. And, and Canada is the police chiefs of Canada are wanting to copy that. Now the, uh, the head of the Canadian police chiefs came out and called for decriminalization of all drugs, uh, to follow suit to what Portugal has done.

Dean Becker (13:59)
And, uh, another topic that, uh, I, I went to Switzerland, I there met, uh, dr. Kristoff Berkey. He was one of the pioneers who designed their, uh, heroin injection program. They're now approaching 20 million injections of pure heroin. And, uh, they have had zero overdose deaths, which, which I think undoes the logic that we were talking about, what was created 50 years ago, drug users are bad and deserving of punishment. And I guess what I'm saying here is that changes a foot changes is being recognized as being of benefit, uh, and, and to do away with these old hysteria situations. I don't know if there's a question there other than it's a sign of progress is not.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (14:52)
It is, it is. I mean, just think about it. This is, I mean, if you look at the policy area, even the discussion discussions that are becoming now very much mainstream, I mean, I would just give two examples. The first one is that, I mean, really it is about one of the areas of policy areas where the wrongs are being repaired very quickly. I mean, it's very difficult. It's very hard, but if we look at it, I mean, really with disabilities, to some extent it is the issue that has moved so much in the last 10, 15 years. It did being on the number of debates on the fact that we can speak about it. I mean, who could have seen, uh, marijuana legalized in so many who has space for recreational use, et cetera, and growing, and in a country like Canada at the federal level, et cetera.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (15:31)
So that is one that has really, really very much evolved now. Um, I mean, the decriminalization is a way to move because there is absolutely no. Um, how do I say? Yeah, I mean, sorry, let me come back to the second example, because that was what was in my mind, I said two, I mean, the second one, if you compare now the coverage of the opioid crisis in the United States and the coverage of the crack crisis in the 1980s, I mean, the coverage is very different, even in the language and trying to look into what are the issues, et cetera. So it has indeed evolved. People will start understanding that addiction. I mean, we say dependence because we use the terminology of who, but addiction is the word in the United States that is still used, but here in Europe, we don't. So for us, addiction slash dependence is a chronic disease.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (16:22)
That includes, that includes a relapse. So to some extent, that's why the global commission on drug policy does not agree with the drug courts that sends people into rehabilitation treatment, because that does not take into account that people do relapse and they would go to prison. Otherwise, if they do relapse instead. And also the fact that, of course, no judge should be taken a decision of a doctor to some extent. So I wanted, yeah, I mean, to say these two example, they do really evolve. And in Switzerland, the program of diamorphine that you were speaking about is a program that is extremely controlled. It is a health approach. It is, but the idea there was to say, we have, I mean, the, the, the very pragmatic discussion was, first of all, let's put in place all the services and to save people and let's evaluate them and see if they work or not.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (17:11)
And of course, as you've said, there is a very strict monitoring and evaluation. That program is very difficult even to access because people have to have really a need of diamorphine and not be able to have the fin or methadone or other substitution treatments, then that's how they get there. But of course, now we have evaluation. You've spoken about Portugal, but there are so many different countries that have different models of, of decriminalization. Those commissions of this wage in the, in Portugal are a very, very interesting model because people still have to face somehow, you know, to talk to someone, to talk to many people and say, you know, and so they are conscious that this is not something that is easy. For example, in the Czech Republic is different. It's only a misdemeanor and you just get a fine, so there are many different models, but of course they have been proven. And I mean, there's evidence and there's evaluation.

Dean Becker (17:58)
Now. Um, the other news coming out of Canada, uh, a dr. Perry, Kendall, uh, he has 20 years experience as the British Columbia commissioner on substance abuse, something some titled to that effect, and he's now retiring, but he wants to start up a company to acquire heroin cheaply and to provide it cheaply to the users in Canada, uh, to kind of parallel, I guess what they've done in Switzerland. It's another sign of intelligence from my perspective, because in the U S I don't know, I think it was just over 70,000 people died last year from drug overdoses, because I closed my radio show with this side because of prohibition. You don't know what's in that bag, please be careful. And there's just so much truth. And I think heart in that phrase, your response here, Kaleo.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (18:51)
Yeah. I mean, for us, I mean, those are two really. I mean, just to be again, Dean, I think that you are, of course this is, I mean, I haven't heard specifically about this idea of opening. I mean, they do have a heroin program that is not really a diamorphine programs. One Canada is not working very well, but nevertheless, I mean, those are two issues. So as far as the global commission is really concerned, I mean, diamorphine, if we take the example in Switzerland, it is a very medical program. I mean, this is with very much rules, regulations. People have to try at least twice and other substitution treatment. And it's really for people that are heavily dependent on the substance. So just for the people listening to know that this is something that is very medical and it is a medical procedure. So people go to a day clinic, you know, to get the diamorphine et cetera, which was fantastic because you're in COVID since people who inject drugs were considered as people that are vulnerable to COBIT infection.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (19:35)
I mean, there were some very exceptions to deliver to their homes. The diamorphine, it was a great innovation to keep people alive here during the COVID lockdowns. Um, now on when we say, and, and you touched up on something that is so important, which is about the quality of what people buy or even knowing what they buy, if they are buying the right substance or not. But that is for us, this is the difficulty with this ideological difficulty against a harm reduction, because I mean, drug testing, et cetera, do exist. And those need to be allowed to be implemented at all levels at city level, at state level, at the federal level. Now there is also the issues of, um, I mean, a city like Amsterdam, or even here in Geneva, for example, where people who inject drugs and are dependent on drugs that go to services like safe injection facilities that go into, you know, different services, those people, they, if there is a problem, they can be caught very quickly and they could report what substance, what they bought it.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (20:31)
And so the analysis goes very quickly and the services of the city, even in Amsterdam, they even put like ads in the street saying something is going on in the black market, do not buy this substance. And even here in Switzerland, for example, in Geneva and the communities, because they see what is going on at the safe injection room when they see people arriving. Because, but this is because people are not afraid to come forward because the cops are not going to be called because they're considered patients because they're given the services of harm reduction services, which allow people then to be sent to the doctors. If they have problems to see also the factors or to go into treatment, you know, people send them, so they do testing also for infectious diseases, et cetera, to send them afterwards to the hospital, to have it a regular treatment regimen.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:13)
I mean, not for drugs, but if there's any other issue or if they want to enter into a cycle of treatment, because here we also have, the fact of everything is offered to people have to choose. They could choose the substitution treatment as maintenance for forever. If they can not get out of it, they could use it for a certain period. They can go to rehabilitation and abstinence. I mean, it really is about a therapeutic contract between the doctor and the patient. So it is not about imposing to people what they have to do, it's to help them choose how they get out of their difficult situation. And here again, we're talking only about people with heavy dependence that go to the services, et cetera. We're not talking about the vast majority, which is a recreational, which has no issues. And we don't see. So yeah, I mean, this is the fact of, that's why decriminalization is very interesting so that people can come forward so that the authorities have the information of what is going on in the market.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (21:55)
And for example, some cities can just be in the United States saying like, we have, we have so many fentanyl on the streets, be careful of not buying this, et cetera, et cetera. And those are messages of prevention of course, and keeping people alive. Yeah. But that, that's very hard to do in a repressive environment where people are afraid of law enforcement everywhere in the world, you know, and I will, I think it's more, more powerful. The, the stigma here in the United States that, uh, I mean, you probably heard the phrase, you, if you're getting busted for drugs, you can no longer get a job, credited housing, an education. Uh, there are so many roadblocks put in your way. So many court fees and fines and other obstacles to creating a new life, a new process. And I guess what I'm saying here is that what you guys are doing in Europe and elsewhere, it shows intelligence.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (22:51)
It shows that this is still a human being. It's still a life worthy of respect. And second chances, third chances, more chances. And, and here in the U S as well, once you get that stigma of a druggie, your life is facing a lot of obstacles. Well, I, there's also, I mean, that is, I totally agree with you. And there is no way, no way, no way to minimize the impacts of stigma and discrimination on people's lives. And most certainly on people that are in the most difficult situation to start with. Right. But I mean, and that stigma is more related. It's not only about drugs. I mean, let's be honest. It's about a lot of things. Drugs are cross-cutting issue. They touch upon so many wrong things in our societies. It also falls. I mean, even the implementation of drug laws is so arbitrary people that can afford to do it behind high walls that no one sees they do.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (23:43)
And they don't, they're not impacted to get arrested, et cetera. They get people to deliver to their homes, et cetera, whatever they need. So it is also that nature of arbitrary that makes it very difficult. And it goes also again to all the populations, but I mean, people are starting to get aggressive with death and we are getting out of marijuana because, um, I don't know if this is positive or negative, but I saw the, um, uh, author of the wire, you know, the TV show. And he was speaking about Colorado in their experiment of the marijuana legalization. He was saying that he was worried because in an interview and he was saying, he was worried to some extent, because we are getting out the people that have the political voice, the college white college students, we're getting them out of this, of the prohibition, if we legalize cannabis, because in my want, because that's their substance and what is going to be the issue with other people that use other drugs and do not have that same voice that do not have that same social status and class, and that do not have that same presence in the public debate.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (24:35)
So it is so drugs are used a lot as a bond for a lot of things as well, but those are also issues that are related to the socioeconomic, to the ethnic et cetera issues. And that is not only in the United States, that is the case in the United Kingdom. That is the case in France. That is the case in the Russian Federation, where more people that are arrested do not have Slavic names. They have other names. This is the case everywhere. You know, I mean, you can look at it in every perspective and countries of the South countries of the North, the rich countries, et cetera, when you have something that is, that has been so stigmatized and built being built. That's why I said the convention speak about addiction as evil. So this is the state of spirit that we have since the very beginning into this discussion at the time, also to remember that, of course, as I said, maybe the intentions were good, maybe not, but to some extent at the time Europe was in reconstruction, um, the many countries in the South we're getting there, we're getting there decolonized.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (25:29)
This is where to thinking about the sixties. I mean, most of Africa has been getting its independence in 1960, et cetera. And of course the United States was becoming the cultural hedge amount around the world, et cetera. And so that was what, the kind of spirit that went everywhere that went everywhere, which is really funny because at the same time, alcohol and tobacco were glorified and were sold and pushed through marketing, et cetera. So, and this is the spirit that was still fine today, almost everywhere. It is the case in the United States versus very sad because the United States, of course, I mean, people have more access to education, to information more easily, et cetera. And they should get a little bit more informed on the issues to understand also, I mean, I mean, problematic drug use is not far away from anyone's life. Anyone can fall into different circumstances, you know?

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (26:15)
And so people have to look at it into a perspective from a societal societal perspective. What kind of societies do we want is these injustices that are not very far from anyone and the opiod crisis shows it. I mean, people from all social classes die, people suffer from everywhere, et cetera. So it is about getting informed about what kind of societies will want together. This is why the global commission has always called since the very beginning for, um, net for local national stay, you know, consultations people around the table, talking get in parents of children, getting the police, getting school teachers, getting people who use drugs, get in, uh, health workers, social workers, uh, prosecutors, everyone around the table so that everyone can hear the concerns of everyone. I mean, this is a one society. People have to sit together and find the issue. And this is what happened in Switzerland actually to prepare the national policy of the four pillars, which is a prevention treatment harm reduction repression.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (27:11)
So this is how drug policy is handled here is the four pillars. And so that was based on many, many, many federal kind of tonal because it's also here, a federal country, fentanyl and local, uh, consultations and discussions where people would come in and say their issues about Lake, you know, the neighborhoods with, with the syringes in the street, uh, people being afraid because the syringes are near the parks where the children play the perspective of the police, the perspective of the prosecutors. And, you know, so everyone has to come together to find a consensus, to some extent and advance the issues little by little. But I mean, again, just to say, it's been 50 years of, you know, making the same nod and it's so big now that it has to be done a little by little by little by little, because whenever you try to do something so quick, the unintended consequences become very big because drug policy is so cross cut into so many other issues to health, to housing, to employment, you know, it is with a person. So it touches upon everything.

Dean Becker (28:11)
What you bring forward there. I want to kind of delve into, and that is the cantons I guess, are the sub governmental agencies and whatever, but we haven't United States. We have the 50 States, we've got cities counties. And then, then we have, uh, governors versus state congresses, et cetera, people battling on this issue. But what, what, uh, where the changes are being made are on the local level cities deciding they're not going to enforce a law as vigorously or in the same way as they did before my city of Houston being a prime example, um, you can have up to four ounces of marijuana now and not be arrested. You get a ticket and you got to take a class and that's in essence, contrary to state law, or I dunno, skirts the state law in some fashion. And I guess what I want to bring forward is that at the national level, the federal level, we have just a handful of people.

Dean Becker (29:15)
The, the U S attorney general, the head of the DEA, the head of the office of national drug control policy, a few others who have this quote authority whose pronouncements ensure that these drug laws continue forever because they, they quote have the moral authority. They know what in the heck they're doing. And I would love the opportunity to have five minutes to show. They don't have a clue what they're doing because they, they, they don't care how many people die. How, how many kids have access, how many gangs and terrorists are funded. They just do not care about that. They have a mandate that's as you say, that started out 50 years ago as being, you know, sanctified and pure, but it has been shown to be nothing but madness from my perspective, you know, your responsibility.

Dr. Khalid Tenasti: (30:05)
Well, I mean, the impacts are the impacts of the prohibition on the war, on drugs and being very repressive can not be concealed.

05/27/20 Global Commission Calls for End of Prohibition

Program
Cultural Baggage Radio Show
Date
Guest
Global Commission
Organization
Global Commission on Drugs

Global Commissioners Report calls for legalizing drugs with Ruth Dreifuss former President of Switzerland, Louise Arbour former High Commissioner on Human Rights, Juan Manuel Santos former President of Colombia, Helen Clark former Prime Minister of New Zealand & Anand Grover UN Special Rapporteur on right to health + Phil Smith reporting on Global Commission for Citizen Truth + Norma Sapp reports on cannabis laws in Oklahoma.

Audio file

CULTURAL BAGGAGE
052720
TRANSCRIPT
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HOST DEAN BECKER: Broadcasting on the drug truth and network. This is Cultural Baggage…
-Audio  “Drug War, It is really fundamentally UnAmerican, No More Drug War” -

DEAN BECKER: My name is Dean Becker. I don't condone or encourage the use of any drugs legal or illegal. I report the unvarnished Truth about the pharmaceutical, banking, prison and judicial nightmare that feeds on Eternal drug war. For nearly a decade. Now a collection of former heads of state High political figures businessmen and cultural figures have been working to reform drug policy at the national and international levels known as the global Commission on drug policy. 
This group of planetary leaders has been busy issuing reports every year on how to reduce the harms of prohibitionist drug policy and envisioning more effective and Humane Alternatives, I'm reading that from a recent report in Citizen Truth. It was authored by good friend of the Drug Truth Network. Mr. Phil Smith, who is with us now. Hey Phil, how are you sir? 

PHIL SMITH: I'm fine. And dandy Dean. How are you?

DEAN  BECKER: I'm well now this was a great piece and I've got to fess up. Neither my associate Doug McVay or I read the drug reporter where this was first issued. A few well over a week ago and I think the same can be said for major media around the US and for that matter around the world to ignore. This is just I don't know how it's been for too long your response to that thought the media just ignoring this this issue

PHIL SMITH: They totally ignored it and they've ignored you know, the ten or so previous reports issued by the Global Commission these are some of the smartest people on the planet former presidents of countries businessman like Richard Branson. It was led by former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan until he died. These are some very experienced and wise people and as I said, they put out a series of reports that no one pays attention to well 

DEAN BECKER: and I if I may underscore what you've just said they issued a video I'll report as well. It's out there on YouTube and you can link to it on your report there. But among those speaking Ruth Dreyfus president of Switzerland back in the 1990's Louise Arbour High Commissioner of Human Rights and Juan Manuel Santos the former president of Columbia just a couple of years back Helen Clark prime minister of New Zealand and Anand Grover special reporter on the right to health the top dog people. These are not hippies on the street corner. Am I right? 

PHIL SMITH: Absolutely and it's a damn shame that we don't have a former President Barack Obama Obama and his commission as well. Well,  somehow u.s. Representation. 

DEAN BECKER: I would certainly have to agree with that. Now Phil, you know, we're going to hear some extracts from that video there on YouTube a little later in the show. But what they say is powerful it's it's worthy of attention. It's worthy of respect. It's worthy of endorsement is it not?

PHIL SMITH:  indeed. I mean they say flat out that countries have to acknowledge the negative. of repressive law enforcement approaches the drug policy and to recognize that it is only enriching and powering and abetting those people we claim to hate the the drug trafficking cartels. You governments have to acknowledge this it may have to educate their citizens about the reality of this and that can help influence drug quality policy decisions at the national level and you making the general public aware of all the damage that Our prohibitionist policies do 

DEAN BECKER: well and so so right Phil Smith. I I think sometimes the work that you do and that I do and certainly that this commission does does seep out into the community out into the powers that be and I think with this covid pandemic now governments are mostly in the Northwest Canada and British Columbia Washington State on down through California theyre lessening the penalties there Drew finding ways to stop arresting people. They are embracing some of these ideas being put forward. Am I right?

PHIL SMITH: you are right and it's not just there. It's broader than that. I wrote about a month or well, maybe six weeks ago about major police departments across the country or just giving up on arresting people for minor charges including drug charges.

PHIL SMITH: They found that arresting people for drug offenses is not an essential service.

DEAN BECKER: Right. Now I want to once again point out that this report on citizentruth.org global leaders are finally realizing you can fight organized crime by legalizing drugs. I urge you folks go read. This report takes a link of listen to the the thoughts being put forward on the YouTube and and look at the report. They are issuing this But how many pages was that report Phil? 

PHIL SMITH:Oh, it's about 90 Pages. 

DEAN BECKER: Yeah, I mean this is this is no

PHIL SMITH: The did not just a flat just toss it off.

DEAN BECKER: No no and and they have the moral High Ground. They have invested the time. Whereas certainly in the United States day. They waste time they do not want to re-examine this policy. They avoided at all costs in most venues because I like to use the phrase these politicians made their bones through this policy and just don't want to look back on it. Now. 

DEAN BECKER: Your closing thoughts there Phil Smith. 

PHIL SMITH: Well people who have actually lived with the reality of Global Drug prohibition such as the former president of Columbia know all too. Well what needs to be done. They've seen the Damage Done to their country. Let me give you just one brief quote from former president Santos of Colombia.

PHIL SMITH: He said I come from a country that has fought drug traffickers and drug trafficking for so long and is probably paid the highest price of any country in the world. Colombia has lost its best leaders best journalists best judges best policemen, and we're still the number one exporter of cocaine to World Markets corruption and drug trafficking go hand in hand the most dangerous and protective of individuals often escaped while Ordinary People Who happen to use illicit drugs, see their lives destroyed by the War on Drugs.
I think he's got it about right.

DEAN BECKER: I am the Reverend Dean Becker of the Drug Truth Network standing in the river of Reform baptizing drug Warriors to the unvarnished truth drugtruth.net.

DEAN BECKER: All right will now begin our focus on the launch of enforcement of drug laws refocusing on Organized crime Elites the video out there on YouTube put together by the global Commission on drugs. The panel was moderated by Mr. Mark Shaw. 

MARK SHAW: We reporting today's discussion in a virtual format because of the pandemic the pandemic provides a particular framework around which to discuss an issue like organized crime, which is a global phenomenon itself. And so this particular report enforcement of drug laws refocusing on organized crime and leads comes at a very particular and significant time the report makes some very significant recommendations both for National responses for regional responses and particularly for the global multilateral response to organized crime.

MARK SHAW: The global commission itself is a really unique body. It was founded in 2011, and it's consists of 26 Commissioners. Now those Commissioners are High-profile people, 14 of them are former heads of state and we have some of those Commissioners online with us today to discuss the report the chairperson of the commission, a first former president of Switzerland who has been key to driving forward the work of the commission degrees Arbor is a prominent Canadian jurist with a distinguished International career including as the UN Commission on human rights. Helen Clark is a former prime minister of New Zealand.
And as well as the former undp administrator with long experience of the multilateral system. Anon Grover, a prominent Indian jurist with a long record of advocating for human rights.
And one Manuel Santos a former president of Columbia and a Nobel Peace Prize winner. We hear first from Ruth Dreyfus the former president of Switzerland.
 
RUTH DREYFUS: The first thing I want to do is to say hello to everybody and to present the global Commission on drug policy on one side. We have the dramatic experience of our Latin American fellows who experience the first decade of the Millennium a dramatic situation where the state institution the rule of law was written by the international traffic of drugs and different cat tails in the meantime in Europe leaders were facing another dramatic Challenge and that was the situation of the drugs, the people who consume drugs the threat also of overdoses and marginalization of this people the criminalization of the people the fact that they were really at the margin of the of the society and in both region leaders try to show that it was a consequence of the prohibition and incapacity to deal with the real problems the real problems of Criminality to real problems of health fail since one.

RUTH DREYFUS:So this was the beginning but step by step. We got Global we had fellows in Africa and the valley der shape of the late century. And then we work largely from Asia to the Pacific region. 
Now, we are a group of 26 people. They would say world leaders from the political cultural economic life who feel that it is their responsibility to share their experience and to show that it is possible that it is necessary to change drug policy in order to avoid all these consequences call to the work of the commission has been a strategy around five pathways. Can you tell us a little bit about what those Pathways cover?

It is putting health first. It is also giving priority to the need.
To consider also some of these substances under their medical possibility. It is one of the dramatic situation also mainly in poor countries that they have the people have no access to painkillers. Well the third pathway we think is very very important is really to end the criminalization of the people who use drugs the fourth chapter of our reform program is
Is that we have to deal with the criminality and this is the reason why today we present this report of the commission and the last point we have to take control the state reasonable and responsible people have to take the control of the drug market and not let it in criminal hands.

DEAN BECKER: next up. We hear from Louise Arbour former High Commissioner for human rights.

LOUISE ARBOUR:  it is In fact a date an odd time and a time for reflection. I think the fact that many of us most of us are now in total isolation has given us more than ever an opportunity to think. I think what this report shows is despite its purported intentions the the War on Drugs as it was conceived and particularly as it unfolded to use again a military imagery has been essentially a war on civilians.

LOUISE ARBOUR: And there's been no effort to tackle any of the enemy combatants 

DEAN BECKER: next up we hear from Helen Clark the former prime minister of New Zealand. 

HELEN CLARK: This report has a new perspective on the problem of organized crime organized crime is a challenge in every society and if it gets into the political realm and starts corrupting political systems, that is a huge issue. And of course it has done.

It now, I think where the commission comes from is that we're saying drugs have been caught up on this because of the refusal of the International Community to accept that drugs need to be responsibly regulated. 
The attempt to prohibit them has actually been a license for organized crime to build a half trillion dollar a year industry in peddling stuff. Could we take drugs out of that through responsible regulation.

NARRATOR: And I wonder if I could ask her. If one man. Well your views having LED Columbia dealt with these issues over time. What would your recommendations be drawing on the the conclusions of the report? 
JUAN MANUEL SANTOS: Well my own experience coming from a country that has formed drug traffickers and drug trafficking for so long and has paid probably the highest cost of any
in the world Colombia has lost its best leaders its best journalist bit judges best policeman and we are still number one exporter of cocaine to the world markets corruption and drug trafficking go hand in hand the most dangerous and most protected individuals often Escape while ordinary people who happened to use the illegal substitute see their lives destroyed by the War on Drugs to fight organized crime. 

JUAN MANUEL SANTOS: We must follow the money. So you sense this elements of the report would be immediately welcomed should be welcomed. I hope so because people are are realizing that one word that has been fought for half a century and has not been one is a war has been lost and so you have to change your strategy and change your tactics tactics. If you want to be successful and I use the symbol of a started bicycle my country. We've been peddling and pedaling and a very high cost very high cost. That's why when I realized that this was not working. I started to discuss ways to change that approach and this, this is why I am so happy and proud of being part of this commission. 

NARRATOR: The violence issue comes up again. And again in the report as a key harm something that needs to be reduced by States responding to the issue of organized crime. What was your experience from Colombia? What can be done on this issue? 

JUAN MANUEL SANTOS: It's very closely related corruption violence profits and you should you do away with prohibition you regulate bring the profits down and immediately you will start to see an improvement in violence and in corruption, 

DEAN BECKER: this is Louise Arbour former High Commissioner for human rights from Canada.
LOUISE ARBOUR: When you have bad laws laws that are misguided hugely unpopular and basically not respected. 

LOUISE ARBOUR: And by a large number of the population as was the case in Canada and as is the case in many parts of the world with respect to criminalization of personal use of drugs, two things happen first it they roads the respect for the rule of law more broadly because the minute people see that some laws are not worth obeying. It undermines the confidence that we must that it's in everybody's interest that everybody obeys the law so it has this Pernicious effect on countries that are governed by the rule of law.

It's very bad and it was the case. I think with respect to personal consumption of marijuana widely disregarded prohibition despite the fact that some of the penalties were unduly harsh; that brings me to unduly harsh penalties as soon as the Canada adopted a Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982, one of the one of the first cases that came to the court where the laws were challenge was the mandatory, mandatory minimum seven year sentence for importing narcotics, which could include importing one joint of marijuana. A lot of the conversation was well, it doesn't matter if the law is too harsh either prosecutors will not use it, pass it or judges will find a way this again instills a culture Of non-compliance. 

LOUISE ARBOUR: Which is not good you want laws that are just that are fair that are perceived as such and then that are applied fairly and equitably so I think what we've seen the Judiciary and not just the defense counsel prosecutors police officers, we've seen throughout the system as low resistance to bad laws and that's not good. I mean, it's good for the person who escapes this on Unfair punishment, No, but it's very corrosive for legal systems.

DEAN BECKER:  Next up Mark Shaw. The moderator asks a question of Anand Grover. He's the UN special rapporteur on the right to human health now retired...

MODERATOR: and is there a disjunction between sentences handed down to ordinary users as opposed to what the report calls the criminal Elite, Is there a disjunction between that?

ANAND GROVER: well very really will you come across a real head of a criminal gang being arraigned. It's always the small carriers or the the way down the the persons who distribute the drugs at the local level because the the success in Narcotics is in terms of arrests and seizures, you know, the the police are obviously more keen to get that done.
Not only the police all the other entities. 

MODERATOR:  This report them really focuses on what it turns the criminal elite mean you've been in the debates of the Commission in how significant is that in terms of the Genesis of the commission's own thinking

DEAN BECKER: Once again, this is Louise Arbour former High Commissioner for human rights.

LOUISE ARBOUR:  I think it's really important because in the early works of the commission particularly when we got into the very contentious advocacy of complete decriminalization of personal use of all drugs, even in an environment that were very sympathetic as many were in Canada to the decriminalization of the use of marijuana. When it got to Other Drugs It was a lot of resistance.

LOUISE ARBOUR: I think the significance of this report is that it makes clear that we're not friends of drugs and were not some kind of antique hippies trying to promote the free for all drug consumption and pretend that it's a good thing and the significance of this report is that it shows that there is indeed very much a place for law enforcement in drug control and in combination with that we have the developments in artificial intelligence metadata, the capacity of tracking tracking transaction tracking people that is unprecedented and gives tools for what we're advocating which is go after the hard work not the easy work that you've been doing up to now of arresting people on street corners.

DEAN BECKER: here to close out today's coverage from the global Commission on drug policy report is the former prime minister of New Zealand Helen Clark

HELEN CLARK: if we look at crime in general, there are always social and economic determinants to it and sometimes we see countries putting enormous emphasis on fighting crime without looking at what are some of the drivers is that poverty? Is it marginalization? Is that school dropouts? It's also about a broader social determinants approach and I think the commission has long been an advocate with drug policy of saying look at the social determinants. Look at the real issues. Look at the classification and a number of these things like cannabis.

HELEN CLARK: Relatively harmless anyway, when compared with legal drugs like tobacco and alcohol. In other words. Could we have a real discussion here? Not one driven by a simple of the ology that drugs are bad. Every criminal is quote a bad person when we know all from our personal experiences of people who have ended up as criminals who could have had a different path, but I'd like to see it Scientific and pragmatic approach, an approach which isn't based on repression. 

DEAN BECKER: We'll have more from the global Commission on drugs on next week's program.

NAME THAT DRUG:  It's time to play name that drug by its side effect headache dizziness nausea vomiting psoriasis, alcoholism damage to your retina heart disease diabetes liver or kidney disease muscle weakness numbness hair loss death time's up the answer from a Sanofi Pharmaceuticals.  hydroxychloroquine for malaria.

TRUMP: “I sure as hell think we ought to give it a try. What the hell do you have to lose”

DEAN BECKER: Last October, I went to Oklahoma got to tour some of their dispensaries a couple of Grow rooms. Got to see how it's done in Oklahoma and it's done pretty darn good. They have a great medical program there. There has been some recent discussion about improving the situation and I think that Covid dilemma has already changed a few nuances as well. But here to fill us in is drug reform after list extraordinary my friend Norma Sapp.

DEAN BECKER: Hello Norma

NORMA SAPP: Hey there Dean 

DEAN BECKER: Norma. I want to you know, first off talk about what has happened of of late local officials State officials are changing perspectives, they're letting some people out of jails and prisons there and they're changing their perspectives on how they handle drug cases. So to speak have they nuanced the medical marijuana program there in Oklahoma following the Advent of this pandemic.

NORMA SAPP: Well one thing that was right away, we were deemed essential. So all of the cannabis dispensaries and grows are still open operating.
And it's a good thing because a whole bunch of people were sequestered at home and the month of April. They spent sixty nine thousand dollars on- or million dollars on cannabis product. 

DEAN BECKER: There has been a lot of talk through the certainly been resonating in Texas. There was this hope this potential that Oklahoma was going to change their laws to allow for out-of-state folks to gain access to the medical program. You can fill me in on the Details of how that might work and then and then what has happened to that possibility of late

NORMA SAPP: Okay, so I kind of got to go back to the beginning here. We had eight bills all together and House Bill 3228 was actually a request bill by the Oklahoma medical marijuana authority to fix a whole bunch of things that went wrong last year in the bill 26:12 housebill 2612.

We were told we couldn't have but one cannabis bill. So we took some of the meat out of the bills that we had to 7 and put them into this 3228 and it went along great last, Last Friday Night yesterday but a week ago it passed with a two-thirds majority and Senate and House. And so I thought all right, we're good and all the people from Texas and Kansas.
Then come here get a 90-day license and be able to treat cancer, you know with RSO in 90 days and license would not they wouldn't have to change their state of residence or their drivers license or anything that could use the Texas, or Kansas driver's license apply for a 90-day card for $100 and just come on in and put themselves up in a motel or whatever and treat with RSO to help their cancer. 

NORMA SAPP: Well then yesterday, er well day before yesterday. I guess the governor vetoed are cannabis bill 82 Earth house bill 32:28, so they had to do an override as yesterday. That's pretty much what they came back for yesterday was to do overrides of all the vetoes our governor had done and that one I don't know what the argument is, but they were not willing to do whatever it needed to do, too.
Get it on the you know in the floor in the queue. So I think it's just amazing because I don't know the back or a room discussions, but the legislature the week before had vetoed the budget bill that they come up with and so are no I'm sorry the governor vetoed it and then the legislature went back and overrode the Veto so I think he is the governor's upset that they went ahead and overrode his veto on the budget Bill, and he's holding on to their cannabis bill until they, you know, make concessions. So that's that

DEAN BECKER:Thank you Norma Sapp. Thank you Phil Smith. Thank you for listening. Please visit our website drugtruth.net. And again, I remind you because of prohibition. You don't know what's in that bag. Please. Be careful.